Jacob Barr (00:00)
So, I mean, we're pretty good. So considering you have a head cold. Let's see. Well, welcome to the Pro Life Team podcast. I'm Jacob and I'm here with Mary. And today we're going to talk about the National Association of Pro Life Nurses. Mary, go ahead and give us some of your background and let's, yeah, let's start the conversation.

Mary Hodges (00:24)
Sure, I am an Arizona native here ⁓ and ⁓ lived here all but three years of my life. I am a registered nurse. I did attend Arizona State University back in the 80s. And then I moved to Texas to pursue graduate school because all of my professors were encouraging all of us to continue our education and to go on and do more things and then come back and help teach. And so I did. And I really enjoyed my time in Houston, but I could not stand the weather. And it was way too wet for me and I was constantly sick. ⁓

That plus the fact I was engaged and getting married, I needed to come back home. So I came back home to Arizona, started my teaching career really here as well as a nurse. And like many nurses, I was working two jobs at the same time, working staff and then also teaching. And those years overlapped probably for about 11 years or so. Well, maybe about half that time. And then I finally went full time ⁓ as an educator back in the mid 90s. So I... ⁓

had, my husband and had three children in very quick succession, three kids in four years. And I ultimately decided that being a mom was far more fulfilling than being a bedside nurse or even teaching. So I stepped back out of the profession and was a full-time stay-at-home mom. And whenever we needed a little bit of extra money, I could always jump back into nursing and pick up a quick registry position here or there or whatnot. And our profession is wonderful for doing that. And as the years have gone on, there's so much more flexibility with being able to even do things from home.

that really benefited our family a little bit. So I always dabbled enough in the profession to keep my license current. That was very important to me. And then about halfway through all of that, halfway through my career, so I got a phone call from a professor, a former professor of mine at ESU, who asked me to come back and teach. They needed help. They were expanding. So I did. I did that for about three years. And then I quit because they changed the campus location. It was much further away, and I was still concerned about being too far away from my kids. So.

I quit at that point. And about that time, I was starting to get more interested in helping out at a pro-life pregnancy center that we have in town here. We have quite a few. But this one in particular was going around to a variety of churches asking for help, financial support, help, and also personnel. And I thought about it for a long time. And when I finally got in touch with them, they said, we're fully staffed. We don't need any help. And then there was another.

Couple of years that went by and I ran into somebody from that organization and they said, oh, we could really use some help again. And I said, I'm sorry, I'm too busy. I can't help now. So it was just one of those cat and mouse situations where finally everything came together about in 2014. They needed the help. I was available. So I volunteered and I was in a position where I did not need a salary per se as a nurse then. So I was really happy to volunteer and work as a nurse ultrasonographer.

That facility trained five of us nurses to do that. They brought in a specialist from the company of the machine that the Knights of Columbus had donated to our center. so then, I mean, it took a while. It took me almost a year to get trained up. They wanted us all to be knowledgeable in the counseling first. And then we rolled into the education on how to work the machine. And then we paired the two together. And so that was the model they were using there. And I was with them for five years.

and stepped away just before COVID happened. It's run out to about 2019 or so. And during COVID, I was bored and I thought, well, mostly an empty nest or here, just some kids left in college. And I thought I'm going to fulfill a dream I had way back when I was in high school with my friends. We also, were going to all obtain our doctors in something.

And sure enough, my two guy friends, one was in physician and MD, the other one was a PhD in engineering, and I thought, why not? Why not me now? So it made my parents proud. They were both deceased. So I went back to school and did a lot of that as a hybrid because it was COVID during the years. I went back to ASU. It was convenient, ⁓ local, ⁓ whatnot. And I knew a lot of the faculty there from either working with them at Bedside or from being in the teaching faculty realm. And I... ⁓

Finished that degree program in three years, it a part-time program. So I have a DMP in innovation leadership and I took some time off thinking, okay, I'm done, this is enough. But then I got quickly bored. So I went back to teaching again. I called them up and I said, do you need some help? They said, we always need help. So I taught for a couple of semesters here and there. Took some time off to be with family that needed my help as a nurse actually. And then I finally went back and then this past May, I...

Jacob Barr (04:46)
Thank

Mary Hodges (04:49)
told them I'm retiring. I'm finished with teaching. I think I'm finished with that part of my career. And over my time there, made some really good solid friendships there, but I could really see how as a body of nursing, we were very, very different nowadays than we were back when I graduated nursing school. So that's kind of my career in a nutshell, I think. then along, since 2012, my husband and I have...

been certified natural family planning instructors. That was something we did together and still very much enjoy doing that. And I found that everything that I learned becoming an instructor and teaching couples, individuals and classes, it just up tails nicely with the pro-life message. And I was always able to interweave all of that information in with that and really educate people on what's going on.

Jacob Barr (05:38)
Awesome. So ⁓ when did you connect with the, the pro-life association, the association of pro-life nurses? And then you tell us about maybe how that organization got started and where it is today.

Mary Hodges (05:53)
Sure. So we like to, in our vernacular, we call it NAEPEN. So it's just easier to say the National Association of Fair Life Nurses. So we say NAEPEN. ⁓ NAEPEN was started in 1973 ⁓ as a response to the Roe v. law back in the day. ⁓ Nurses back then felt they needed to have a repository of like-minded colleagues and those that had connections in the legal world.

to help in case a nurse was faced with a conscientious objection and needed legal defense funding ⁓ or was threatened with losing her job or any of that kind of situation or scenarios. So they came together and they initiated the organization and it's been going ever since. That's primary mission is to support nurses who are working in pro-life areas as well as who hold, who are working in general areas but have whole pro-life views and feel themselves feeling burdened or persecuted.

for any reason. And I'm happy to say that over the past nearly 40, 50 years, there hasn't been that many instances where the organization has had to reach out to lawyers that we have to help. ⁓ Most of us nurses have the autonomy aspect of our career where we can refuse treatment to a patient as long as there's someone else qualified that can handle that same caseload or individual patient.

So I think that helps a lot of us out. think also a lot of nurses probably don't know that they can refuse to care for a patient if it misaligns with their own personal values. So they just suck it up and they do it and they bear that burden. So that is an entity that's been around. It's nationwide. There are no local chapters, but we do have members from all over the United States. When I started back with my doctoral program, my advisor at the time said,

She looked at my resume and she said, well, you don't really belong to anything and all of our nurses at that level do. And especially if you want to continue teaching, you need to be a role model. You need to have professional membership in something. So I knew I could not belong to the American Nurses Association because I know they have a very active political action committee that is pro-choice, instantially pro-choice. And I thought, well, shoot. So I Googled pro-life nursing organizations or whatnot. And that's how I found NAPIN. And so I joined and that was about 2019 or so, somewhere around 20.

21 or 22, they had a call for volunteers to be on the board of directors. So again, I my hat in the ring so I can do that ⁓ and was voted onto the board. And then about a year later after that, I was ⁓ elected vice president of the organization and my time in that role will be ending this coming December, January timeframe. So I'll just go back to being a regular board member. I, excuse me, ⁓ I've always worked that job.

that volunteer job into my nursing lectures with students because I think it's important for them to know that we exist as a body and we're out there. And that was one of the interesting things I can tell you in a state school at a very large university to be out there in the weeds, if you will, with people. So I'll leave it at that. We can talk about other things related to that. But that's how I came to know about it. We have an executive director. She's in Louisiana. We have ⁓ a president who sits in Illinois.

I'm out here in Arizona. We have a treasurer. have all those typical positions you would find. It is a nursing organization where if you're a nurse and you need, like I did, you need to belong to something for your professionalism box on your resume, join us. We have all of our meetings are via Zoom, four times a year. The dues are very nominal. And we also offer a thousand dollar scholarship for nursing students annually to help them with their nursing school education fees.

Jacob Barr (09:40)
Awesome. Yeah. think the, yeah. I think I heard from either you or someone else that the $30 per year has been there for a very long time and at the very nominal, very small, almost nothing amount of cost to join. So can you define, you know, how would you define a pro-life nurse? How would you define, you know, taking that

Mary Hodges (09:50)
That's true.

Jacob Barr (10:07)
pro-life stance and where does that actually show up?

Mary Hodges (10:10)
Sure. At our organization, ⁓ we believe in life begins at conception and we believe in caring for individuals until natural death. So if I had to define a pro-life nurse, I would say it's someone who believes the same thing, who believes life is there at conception. Therefore, any medical procedures, any counseling, anything that is contrary to that would cause pause, I think, and give them maybe some ethical issues. And on the far end spectrum,

I myself spent quite a bit of time working in critical care and with adults in the cardiac units and I saw this a couple times where someone is on the verge of passing away. And what kind of care do we give those people? How far do we go? How far is comfort care? Knowing you could give them morphine a little bit, knowing that the physician has ordered enough morphine to knock them out for good. You could do that, you have that wide range. What do you do there? So the pro-life nurse is going to say, I'm just going to keep you comfortable and I'll give you.

I'll keep you comfortable, but I'm not going to end your life. You still have value. You're still providing me a job for me to take care of you and to comfort your family and maybe get those last goodbyes in and help them see that death is just an instant. You blink, you're alive, you're dead. I've seen it many, many times and it's what you do in all the moments in between that really makes or breaks it for families and what you can say. Sometimes it's just being there in the room. So a pro-life nurse would be that person that understands that fundamentally.

And I would say in my profession, I know so many nurses, they know, they all know life begins at conception. But they've bought into all the narratives that make it easy for them to ignore that because they feel like that's the majority viewpoint. I would say generationally, people such as myself, nurses in my age group that were educated before the year 2000 are probably skewing more pro-life and not afraid to say something.

Since 2000, I would say, you know, they're only going to parrot back what they've been told and what they've heard their whole lives, which is pro-choice is the way to go. Abortion is a healthcare right, which it is not. We don't say that. You know, ⁓ and you know what? If you are no longer productive member of society, not just aging out, but if you're in a permanent vegetative state, if you have some kind of a chromosomal abnormality, you have no worth and therefore you're not worth, your life is not worth anything. So ⁓ it's someone who understands all of that.

And I forgot the second part of your question.

Jacob Barr (12:42)
well, think mostly it was just about what, it takes to be a pro life nurse. And, ⁓ you just sort of like where that, where that shows up in service and posture. And I think you, yeah, I think you did a good job of explaining how it's based on, ⁓ values and believing and having those values impact, ⁓ service.

Mary Hodges (12:47)
Amen.

Yeah, and I'll tell you when I was faculty, one of the classes I consistently taught was professional attributes of nursing to the first semester nursing students. And there's a whole ⁓ PowerPoint on professionalism. And I bring in all my little pins and things that I have for all the different organizations I belong to. First one I always talk about, here's the National Association of Pro-Life Nurses. This is who I am. This is what I am. This is what we do. Next. And sometimes students will write me up at the end of the year on the evaluations, my gosh, she's spreading controversy in the classroom.

It's my little way of showing we're out there and you can't shut us down.

Jacob Barr (13:41)
So how many members do you have and what would happen if that membership increased dramatically into the future? what kind of impact would it have for more pro life nurses to associate with this group of pro life nurses?

Mary Hodges (13:59)
That would be great. I believe right now we have around 350 members nationwide, and that's a mix of professional registered nurses as well as students. Students can join our organization for free. So if we could expand membership, we certainly would have a bigger footprint. Right now, during the last election cycle, we did have a fair amount of requests for commentary related on a lot of things happening with Roe v. being overturned in the election and all the different patchwork now of laws that we have in different states.

So if we have more members, we could probably help answer some of those requests in a more local area. I've been interviewed by people out of Washington, DC, and I'm trying to speak about what's going on here in Arizona. It's like, I'm here. They're asking me about things going on in Idaho. While we have that information, it just would be helpful if we had people actually there on the ground who could speak to it more directly. So networking would be huge. We do have really interesting.

a really interesting board and members from all over, ⁓ all walks of nursing. ⁓ And some of them also have really other interesting affiliations too. In addition, we had one board member for a while who was, she was a feminist for life, which was like, wow, that was really neat. A lot of us do know members of Congress at the local level in our states and have worked in the past. have a member, a board member who

I like to think of her as an emeritus member because she's just so well prolifically ⁓ written over her entire life. She has her own blog. Her name is Nancy Velko. She has worked with Congress to, at her local level, establish laws related to dignity of life and pro-life. She focuses mostly on end of life issues and whatnot. So more people, we can get more local area movement moving in that direction and help really clarify for the public, I think.

That's one thing we don't have right now is a big bullhorn to be the voice of reason in the narrative and the public narrative about, you know what? Life does begin at conception and natural death should be when we all pass away. And ⁓ we're just so small right now. And while we are on social media, we just don't have a platform for that. Nor are we, we've always been told we need to be careful with that because we're a nonprofit. there's so far, only so far we can go with what we can say. So more members in local areas would be a ⁓ decentralized way of letting other nurses know.

that there's a place where they can go with like-minded people.

Jacob Barr (16:22)
⁓ It seems to me like it'd be really handy to have a group of, know, like-minded value sharing ⁓ members to share a difficult situation in order to get feedback and advice. ⁓ Does that ever take place with your group when it comes to like cases that are difficult to navigate or they're complex with multiple layers? there an opportunity to get help?

you know, for someone who might join as a member for them to be able to get advice.

Mary Hodges (16:55)
Sure, they could certainly do that. We are ready to accommodate that with our board and with the network that we have on the inside for individuals. And like I said, it's been a long time since someone's actually needed that, but we certainly can put them in touch with people across the United States.

Jacob Barr (17:12)
Awesome. what are the benefits or what's it look like to be a member of this National Association of Pro-Life Nurses?

Mary Hodges (17:20)
Sure, so ⁓ our top leadership, our executive directors, Maria Ashby and our president is Dorothy Kane. They travel nationally and go to a variety of different nursing conferences. ⁓ A lot of them have to do with the pro-life movement. Like Care Net is a big one they go to all the time, pardon me. They also attend some women in healthcare conferences as well for nursing. Pretty much anywhere ⁓ they can get to that's convenient and ⁓ has a nationwide focus ⁓ to recruit.

to recruit new members. A lot of us are ⁓ active in our local states marches for life that are held throughout the year. So a member would benefit from getting the opportunity to participate in member meetings four times a year with a guest speaker. And sometimes we're able to offer CEUs. So if you live in a state that requires that for your licensure, we do offer those for free. We don't always have the ability to get those though, but we do our best to do that. ⁓ And then we have a member portal on our website.

where if you can't be present for a meeting and the guest speaker was there, we record them. And so then we post those so you can go back and watch at a later date and be up to date on a variety of topics related to the pro-life world and nursing care. You will get a newsletter four times a year. It's seasonal, so we're getting ready for our fall one, and then we'll have spring and summer and fall again. Winter, we have a winter one too. and then I think just knowing that you are part of a national organization, can sort of...

than on your resume. ⁓ can, we have board members that come and go that cycle on and off every couple of years. So if you want to earn any kind of credit towards leadership, maybe you are considering going back to school for an advanced degree. This is a pretty low stress, low, low, I don't know, low stress, I guess is the best thing, environment to get your feet wet doing something like that.

Jacob Barr (19:10)
Interesting. Yeah. ⁓ So when it comes to, you know, the ideal person who, you know, would benefit from this group, would it be someone who is, you know, in nursing school or just barely out of nursing school? What would that look like?

Mary Hodges (19:24)
Sure, think ⁓ either way, either way. ⁓ The students that we have, we actually have one student that is active on our board and he runs our social media. So he's certainly getting all of that benefit on his resumes. And I know he's applying to graduate school. So that will look really good for him. So even if you're not that involved, but you still get to that employer who says, what are you doing professionally to keep their profession going? This is, like I said, it's a very easy ⁓ organization to belong to. ⁓

to fulfill that requirement for people. And then just also knowing that you're here for support. Many times in the chats during our guest speaker presentations, we'll have people put in there, I never knew this before, or this is great, how can I get this where I'm at? So it's a huge repository of information sharing and spreading different types of advocacy across the United States. So.

You can be as active as you want to be in the organization or not. ⁓ I see no downside to not being a member. And even if you are on the, maybe you're pro-life, but you've heard all that other noise coming from the other side your whole life, come and talk and learn that and realize that there are those of us out there that maybe have more years under our belt. We've lived through all. ⁓

ups and downs of all different kinds of laws passing and not passing and everything. So you might feel comfort in being surrounded by other women and men who have been in the boat and have paddled hard and can offer some advice there too.

Jacob Barr (21:00)
That makes sense. ⁓ So let's imagine like there's a scenario where if that patient had a pro-life nurse compared to one who was not pro-life, what would be the impact? Like what's the example of a scenario and then what impact would having a pro-life nurse have compared to one who would ⁓ not be pro-life?

Mary Hodges (21:25)
I think it would come down to how the nurse would treat the family or the patient. It would be what the communication is there. Ethically as nurses, we all treat everybody the same. It does not matter. It does not matter the color of your skin, what your political beliefs are, what you think you are. It does not matter. We are all beholden to caring for the individual in front of us and doing our level best to do what we can do to ⁓ help you recover or help you pass peacefully. So ⁓ if I were caring for a patient that

that was near end of life, let's say. That's my field. I knew that and I knew all the orders and I knew what was going on. I would be seeking out to get, not counseling, but a chaplain nearby. I would ask if that, the patient and patient would want that. ⁓ And I would expect that of our hospice nurses as well. I know they have all that whole, they have a I'm going say method, they have a whole entourage of what they can offer people. But you can have death and dying in hospice at home and in hospital setting.

in all three areas. The pro-life nurse is going to be the one there recognizing, need to help this person and more importantly, I need to help the family that'll be left behind cope. And what can we do to help with that? And so many people just don't hear when they're in such a crisis situation. So we need, we know that as nurses. And so we need to be prepared to have maybe written materials of references and resources and how, and know where that is on your unit or where you can go and get a hotline number and say, give us a call or we'll be checking back on you. If you're a poor choice, it would be another day at the office for you.

Okay, there's one, they're gonna die. They're gonna die soon. How soon can we get the bed ready? Who's coming in? I could just see that their attitude would be nonplussed. I would think the patient's family would have to be very proactive in asking for a chaplain rather than having that be at the forefront of somebody who's pro-life. And in most hospitals, most places do accommodate all faiths. ⁓ But that's not in their house. That's just not in their wheelhouse. ⁓ I was working with a couple of years, summers ago when I was teaching,

with a graduate student and she was preparing to become a nurse practitioner with a focus on family and maternal health. And I said, hey, look, where I work, ⁓ you can spend up to an hour with a patient and really talk to them and get to know them and know their family and really care for them that way. And she got all excited about everything and really liked that because where she was currently doing her work was at a federally qualified healthcare center where she only had 15 or 10 minutes per client.

She just wasn't getting any satisfaction out of it. And I said, come see what I do. And then I said to her, you know, ⁓ just so you know, this pregnancy center though, it's pro-life and you'll need to sign a declaration stating that you agree with everything that they do there. And she just looked at me flatly and she said, I could never do that. I'm like, well, all right, all right. Good luck with your career and your unfulfilling situation you're in right now because it's totally different when you have a ⁓ life-facing ⁓ mindset.

versus you're just a number. You're just my job for the day, you know?

Jacob Barr (24:25)
It seems like, in order to work at um, at a Prancy clinic that is going to either probably be Catholic or evangelical or both, there's going to be a statement of faith that has to be signed. For your group of pro-life nurses, would you say that 90, a high 90 % are either Catholic or evangelical and followers of Jesus or would that, or that

Fall, perhaps.

Mary Hodges (24:55)
Sure. You know, we had, we actually had a Jewish member as well. So yes, I would say everybody believes in God and has a Christian background of some sort. It's not something that we go through and we ask people specifically as part of the organization because we say we're non-denominational. So everybody's welcome to join. And we do try to inform our speakers that we really want to limit

any kind of proselytizing because that's not what we do. We're nurses. We have lot of similarities. ⁓ But we want to hear more about our nursing side, our nursing job, and what we can do based on what information is coming at us. So some people get a little fussy when, and understandably so, when a conversation starts to tend to head off towards one direction of one particular faith. And we want to avoid all of that kind of situation.

Jacob Barr (25:51)
Interesting. Yeah, I was at a, prancy clinic conference and there was a lady who was a Mormon at that event and she expressed how she had tried to volunteer at several prancy clinics, but she wouldn't get, she wasn't able to get past the, the statement of faith because she couldn't agree as it was written. ⁓ and so I would expect that a, ⁓ you know, a nurse who is working or volunteering at a prancy clinic would probably have to go through that same.

checkpoint of agreeing with the statement of faith. I expect that's probably a normal piece for a nurse to work with the privacy clinic.

Mary Hodges (26:30)
Yes, yes. I don't think mine was where I worked. They consider themselves non-denominational, but we were all Catholic. And I mean, a huge crucifix in the hallway, leading right down to the ultrasound machine room. But we signed an agreement attesting to our right to life beliefs. That's the way it was. And faith was left out of it there.

Jacob Barr (26:38)
Okay.

Okay. So, so with, yeah, so with this group, what do you see, you where do you see the, ⁓ actually made me phrase that, ⁓ which, ⁓ current topic or issue has this group really helped, you know, helped you navigate like whether it's, you know, ⁓ whether a woman who has an abortion, you know, the, argument that she should be, you know, criminalized or the, you know, really the argument that she should not be criminalized.

or some other topic or topic, which topic has this group really helped you navigate? And then what topic is that or describe that topic?

Mary Hodges (27:32)
Sure.

Maybe one that's totally different, has to do with human trafficking. We have had several speakers present information to us on what to look for and how to assess for that. And some who've had personal experience with that, where they themselves were trafficked and what happened. And as I was sitting through this whole past year listening to these speakers, I thought to myself, my goodness, I now know several of the women that I took care of years ago were trafficked.

And when I had my strongest gut feeling on one of them and I documented it, ⁓ the notes went up to get signed off by the physician and whatnot and came back down. And it was I was just kind of dismissed as, you're acting more like a social worker rather than a nurse. And I'm like, no, you don't really understand. I really believe this person was being trafficked and I think we need to do something. I don't know what we could do. So back then, I didn't really know. So now after these last couple of speakers, I have a better understanding now of if I come across something like that again and I recognize

⁓ the way they present themselves and how they talk and what they say, what they don't say. That's definitely going to help me in the future and everybody else who heard that, speeches as well.

Jacob Barr (28:45)
that a ⁓ medical, sorry, ⁓ is that a medical nursing training in order to identify and respond to traffic, to a client who's probably being trafficked?

Mary Hodges (28:59)
One was, and the other was a group of attorneys that were telling us what the rights were in a variety of states and ⁓ reporting laws, things of that nature. Yes.

Jacob Barr (29:10)
Yeah, that's great. I remember doing an interview a while back with two ladies and they were talking about the super nurse. if you could imagine, you know, the nurse having all the right skills for that privacy clinic, if you could just imagine everything that that would be possible and it would be helpful. And that was one of them was how to identify someone being trafficked. That was part of like their vision for the super nurse. ⁓

And I remember one of the other ones was being trained and equipped to process a rape kit. And then the result was that the police would drive traffic to that prancy clinic to provide medical care, but in a much softer, gentler, loving ⁓ way to serve the entire woman more so than maybe just processing it through an ER.

Mary Hodges (29:44)
Yes.

Jacob Barr (30:04)
What are your thoughts on like, what would be the, know, if you would imagine like what would be the ideal, you know, tools for that super, you know, for a super nurse in your mind, what would be like one of these ideal tools for a nurse to be able to be trained on and equipped to be able to service with.

Mary Hodges (30:21)
Sure. I would use my nurse manager at that pregnancy center as the perfect nurse. Her name is Suzanne. She just was amazing or is amazing. She's retired now. She came into the pro-life world ⁓ through becoming, she was always a labor and delivery nurse, but her passion became grief and loss counseling related to moms who delivered stillborns or miscarried or whatnot. And she just

went all in on all the certifications she could possibly get for that. So she brought all of that knowledge to ⁓ the center and she took a look around and she said, we're not, we have nothing to offer these women that come in that are so confused and so upset and just lost ⁓ with their own world problems that just to say this pregnancy isn't viable, I'm sorry, here's your miscarriage kit, we'll check on you in a week was not enough.

And so she has an incredible gift of communication and empathy. I would say a super nurse has to be empathetic for sure. And also Suzanne was incredibly creative and she knew that that kind of experience, either be it abortion loss or be it a pregnancy loss, it stays with a woman for the rest of her life. And there are things a woman can do to help unburden herself when her mind starts going. And it might even be

it might not be right away following the loss. It might be 10 years later. There might be something that triggers something ⁓ that she'll have a flashback and think, if I'd had that child, it would be this age, it would be doing this or whatnot. So Suzanne had all that insight and she would create kits for these women and we would ⁓ liberally give them out whenever we had, because about a quarter of pregnancies do end in miscarriage. And a lot of times, ⁓ even if not for those, women will come in and now they're pregnant, they want to parent or maybe they're on the fence.

but they've had a history of abortion. We would discern that from them giving us their health history. We would then offer them as well, this little kit that she had put together of a journal to write down what you're thinking and what you're feeling and where you're at. And then a little baby foot pin and some other little baby items and things to help close that chapter in their book. And so she was just wonderful in that regard. She was also very, very smart. When I met her, she had at least 40 years experience in OB-GYN care.

So she knew everything and she had a great working relationship with our medical director. So super nurse has to be empathetic. She has to be very smart and at least well experienced and had kind of been there, seen that, done that. ⁓ And because I do think we've had some new grads work with us at our center and they do struggle because they just, it's not that they don't know the nursing care. They just haven't lived through life yet. They've not, many of them not married or never had a child yet. They don't know what it's like to lose a child. You know, whereas the rest of us that have been in the

I think the nurses that are more successful are those that have that underneath their belt. They live through life. They've been married. Maybe their heart's been broken. Maybe it's been healed. Children coming and going, all that kind of stuff. That just helps us relate more to these women that are coming to us, even the teenagers. Having raised teenagers, it's hard to counsel a teenager when you're 20, I think, or 21. saw that. So Super Nurse has to have all those qualities, I think. And I was just very fortunate to really

have Suzanne as a mentor. And it was very hard for her to leave. She was one of those people that wanted to retire, but she just kind of strung it out over five years, you know.

Jacob Barr (33:52)
Wow. So this podcast is primarily for, ⁓ Pranksy Clinic, ⁓ executive directors and leadership. you know, so I want to, I'd like to explore or ask you a question about how, you know, how, ⁓ a Pranksy Clinic, ⁓ might benefit from trying to have either their, their nurse, you know, join as a member or how might a Pranksy Clinic, ⁓ executive director benefit from

you know, asking your group for pro-life, you know, when they're trying to find a pro-life nurse to hire, like what connection is there between a pranks clinic and your group of pro-life nurses?

Mary Hodges (34:34)
Sure. We have a job board on our website. So if you have a job, you can post it there. If you're looking for a job, you can go there and take a look and see. So that's a huge plus right there. I would say it's ⁓ as people become more savvy with their own health care, they know to start looking for verified stuff. So in our world of nursing, we recognize professional membership in any kind of organization as a step above the basic level. That means you care.

You know, and you're you're investing in getting more information regarding whatever area you're working in. So that's always a plus. So if you're a pregnancy center director, I would encourage you to have all of your nurses join the organization. It just looks good. Whether or not they do anything with it, that's up to them. But I think they'll find it very edifying and and sometimes kind of fun, you know, just to pop in and hear one of our meetings 24 times a year and to read our newsletters as well. So for for leadership, it's it's always good to have your your individuals trained.

best. And that's another thing too, listening to our guest speakers. ⁓ They might learn something that would be very helpful for your area or for your center, or they might learn something and say, and be able to say, hey, we tried that and it didn't work. You we could, we could benefit from that information as well. So two ways street there. And again, back to the nurse joining, just, again, it just, it's a solidified, it's a solidified front. If all of you are on the same page and all of you belong to the same organization, it just looks really, really good to the public who want to know that they can trust you.

A ⁓ while ago, years and years ago, there used to be an organization that would give out a certificate that you could put in your office window saying, we've been certified as pro-life or something like that. I don't think that exists anymore, but ⁓ when you're looking and you're vulnerable, you want to know that you're going someplace you can trust. If you see a check mark or you you just know somewhere on the website, somewhere on certified or members, professional membership, whatever, it might give you a little more peace of mind and confidence in where you're going.

Jacob Barr (36:32)
Yeah, that's good. ⁓ So from your journey, your personal pro-life journey, where have you seen God ⁓ answer prayers or God's fingerprints? Where have you seen, what's a story that comes to mind that you could share about? Where you've seen God?

Mary Hodges (36:47)
Sure.

I think when I thought about that before I saw that prompt, I wrote two very different stories. But I think the one that I like that's the most hopeful was, again, back as nursing faculty, just within the last couple of years, in that professionalism class, we had an assignment where students needed to create an aesthetic project. They needed to do a piece of art to describe their discernment process for becoming a nurse. And it had to be all homemade.

and nothing computer generated, no photographs, nothing. You had to create it yourself. And then the students would get up and they would speak for about four minutes describing their art and their journey and how it came. And consistently, every class that I had, I always had two, maybe three students who would stand up and say it was their faith that led them into nursing because they could do good ⁓ as being a nurse. And that was really edifying. And then to see the art that they created and recognize

Those are some pro-life symbols they've put into their art. Some going so far as to say, I believe life begins at conception and drawing a picture of a baby in a womb with a rosary around it. My jaw hit the floor when I saw that girl holding that up in front of 40 people, know, all 20, 22 year olds. Like this, this is amazing. And it just gives me chills to know that there's still a handful of those students out there going back a couple of years. So they're out there. I've always heard it said that this generation is the most pro-life generation.

And it is consistent. seems like the ones that are willing to do that are unabashedly willing to testify to the fact that they are of a faith ⁓ without proselytizing. And ⁓ I just see God working in that. That's just amazing. So ⁓ I'm really, really edified by that. On the flip side, working as an ultrasonographer, I felt ⁓

I felt and I talked with other individuals where I worked in other nurses too, there's a spiritual battle almost that goes on. And because you're doing good and want to do good, evil wants to disrupt that. And there were several times on my way into work, my car would have problems and it would be very difficult for me to get there. And then I'd finally get there. And then it was, well, you know, we had to reschedule your scans because you were late or, know, something it's like, ⁓ man, you know, what is happening here?

So that would happen, or I'd get stuck there because people, before COVID, we had a walk-in policy. You literally could just walk in the door since COVID, you had to make an appointment. But back in the walk-in days, people would come in and those that would always get put to the front of the line were those that said they were considering abortion. So we would drop everything and we would move people around and we would scan those women right away after they had a little bit of counseling just to see how far along they are and that the pregnancy is viable and whatnot. Well, sometimes those days got to be so long, I would miss

family events at home. know, I, and it would, was, you know, like my son's last track meet as a senior and I missed him placing third. I'm like, my gosh, you know, but I'm over here doing this for life. This child's probably going to live, but I didn't get to see that, you know? So there's a lot of that that goes on. Sometimes in the center, ⁓ the counselors would get together. had a chapel upstairs and our second is a two story building. So we had a chapel up there. Counselors would go up and they would pray because they, they, someone would come in and they would get the intake information and, ⁓

about a 30 minute interview with them and counseling and they would uncover a whole lot of stuff going on, a lot of the evil. And so then they would go pray for a few minutes just to take a break. And sometimes we get drawn into that because they were going to need to be scanned and we needed to know what was going on. And so to see that kind of intense situation, then all of a sudden the mom's heart smelt or they're open up to, my gosh, it is a baby, it is alive. There's a heartbeat. I'm carrying a child. You know, that

That is a wonderful arc to be a part of, ⁓ but it's tense throughout all of that. And it's one of those things where you just pray a little bit before every scan and saying, know, Holy Spirit, please help me say what I need to say, because we're not in the role of persuading them one way or another. As nurses, we always approach our part of the job as, just going to give you the facts. Well, let's get you some answers is what I like to say. We'll answer for you how far along you really are, if it's viable, if there's a heartbeat.

but all of us would always use the lingo of this is a baby, even though technically on the paperwork, it's going to say fetal pole, know, or gestational sex or something like that. I just, think, so there's like a three-pronged thing there, you know, it's those God moments where you do see someone's heart change. It's the spiritual battle that all of us were dealing with because we were doing good. And then the last, knowing that there are future nurses out there that are pro-life.

Jacob Barr (41:23)
Thank

Wow. That's good. what do you see that maybe, you know, from your experience working with pregnancy clinic directors and leaders and, you know, precycline groups, what's something that's not, what's, you know, there might be something worth looking at, but yet may have a low adoption rate or it doesn't, it's not commonly known. Well, it'd be something that, you know, may fall into that kind of it's, it's somewhat new or it'd be good for more people to hear about.

Mary Hodges (42:05)
Sure. I really liked the ⁓ promotional cards that the center I was at produced for their people. They give out ⁓ backpacks, like diaper bags, backpacks, to moms that are in their eighth month, because they're welcome to come back. And that's when the counselors talk to them about breastfeeding and everything else and going forward and what you do after delivery. So they divide, they put in there ⁓ these really pretty cards.

about the size of a door hanger thing. And it just said, stop lying to me. And then each card had a different topic. Stop lying to me about birth control. Stop lying to me about premarital sex. Stop lying to me about, ⁓ gosh, abortion was another big one. And it just made me two paragraphs of just stuff. And it was very pretty, shiny, ⁓ very eye-catching. I really liked that campaign that they did. And I thought, that's a slogan we can use all over the place. Stop lying to me. Because I see that everywhere I go.

Especially when I teach NFP and couples are sitting there, you know, ⁓ just thinking all these crazy things about their body and how they can't control it. They can't control their own fertility because they've been that's all they've heard. And it's like, stop lying to me. That's true. So I would say a campaign like that where you can you can do some kind of outreach, grabbing someone's attention with a a saying like that, you know, because these are already people who are vulnerable and they may feel like I'm hearing a lot of things that I don't know what to believe.

You know, so here we are coming with this messaging. So I really, really liked that. Another thing I noticed last fall, was speaking to, we had a panel here in town after the election ⁓ where we rounded up all the wagons and we had a meeting with the minds of a lot of different pro-life entities all in one room. And one of the pregnancy resource centers directors said, we need to be all on the same page. all, we're all ⁓ trying to achieve the same thing, but we don't pull our resources enough.

And I went to a center that, or worked at a center that was its own entity. We had to do our own fundraising. We had to do just all our own sourcing and staffing and everything. You could go five miles over into another city and there was another pro-life pregnancy center that had two locations. And they did their own fundraising and their own board and their own stuff. And then you go maybe 20 miles in the other direction. There's another one. We're all disparate.

at that meeting last fall, the question is, why don't we all come together and just join one national pro-life pregnancy group? And there was quite the discussion that followed that, because people do have their turf and they like it. And then you get into, well, we're Christian, we're not. How do we do that? And so I don't know if we need to have one state or one county, just try that. ⁓ It certainly would relieve a lot of the burden, especially when it comes to fundraising. Maybe you've got people that do a phenomenal job fundraising, you've got this other entity that...

They're really small, you know, and they can't do that, but they could benefit if they join, because then you've got another location where you can send people. And that's another thing too, prior to COVID, we were busting at the seams with people wanting our services, but we just didn't have the time. You know, and it would be nice to offer multiple days of the week. The center now is only open Monday through Friday. We used to be open Monday through Saturday, but only during business hours. I've always advocated for an evening shift. We need an evening shift for people to come off work and then come in.

The problem with that in the area where my center was at or is at, it's a bad part of town. And so then we'd have to pay for security to be sure that people could get from their parking lot into our facility safely and we as staff could leave safely. So there's that threat too. But being part of a bigger conglomeration, I think, is something we really need to have more of a conversation about. And we need to set aside our turf wars and just look at the common good and figure out how we can be together in some of these bigger high-priced entities and

Jacob Barr (45:41)
Mm.

Mary Hodges (45:55)
sharing and getting maybe we could be 24 seven that would be outstanding. But it's going to take a lot of cooperation to get there and some organizational culture change to happen.

Jacob Barr (46:05)
Yeah, and I think there's some serious benefits from, you know, maybe having phone support or chat support 24 seven, because there are decisions being made in the middle of the night and and leaving a message, writing an email, filling out a form or leaving a voicemail is not the same as talking with a nurse or talking with someone. ⁓ And I do agree. I think we should be looking for ways to work together.

Because the mission between an evangelical, a Catholic or a hybrid, essentially the pro-life mission between Prancy Clinics is it probably has 98 % overlap and that 2 % difference, it's almost 100 % overlap when it comes to saving lives, rescuing, intercepting, helping women, helping everyone harmed by this abortion industry.

⁓ Anyways, all to say is I think that's a brilliant idea is that we do need to look for ways to work together and to set aside, you know, protecting donors, protecting turf. think, I mean, I know that that's a natural leaning, but it doesn't necessarily, you know, I guess the question would be is where is God calling us as, you know, as individuals and groups?

Mary Hodges (47:29)
Good point.

Jacob Barr (47:31)
Well, ⁓ Mary, I really appreciate you being on here and I'm excited for people to hear about your group. ⁓ I've got one more question. I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but maybe it'll be helpful. I'll start with a small story. So was talking with an executive director and she was, and I'm gonna have her on this podcast probably in a month or two, ⁓ but she was sharing how they had junior board members. And the idea was that they would have like high school students

joined their board that were not voting. They weren't allowed to have a vote, but they were allowed to attend the meetings and participate and then get involved in some way. I'm just wondering what's the youngest board member your group has had? ⁓ It sounds like you currently have one student, but what's the youngest you think you've had from your memory at least?

Mary Hodges (48:25)
Well, my memory only goes back to 2019 because that's when I joined. But based on historical commentary from everybody there, I would have to say it's our current student, which is a relatively new phenomenon because of tech and all the need to have that knowledge base there. And knowing that he's in his final year, I'm going to guess he's, don't know his age exactly, but I would say early 20s would be the.

Jacob Barr (48:34)
Okay.

So maybe like,

you know, is he going for his bachelor of science or what? Okay. So maybe he started as a sophomore or junior then maybe. Well, I guess I don't, yeah, I'm not sure exactly what I'm asking.

Mary Hodges (48:53)
Ingenersys, you mean?

So

as a four-year nursing program, the BSN, you have two years of your general studies and then two years of nursing school. So ⁓ when students get into nursing school, they're usually juniors. If they change their major...

Jacob Barr (49:07)
Okay.

Okay, so he probably started with

your group as a junior, it sounds like. Okay.

Mary Hodges (49:17)
Yeah, yeah, I was with juniors and seniors.

So they were, but, you know, and some of them took a variety of paths to get there. So they might be a couple of years older, but if I had to bet, I'd say early twenties.

Jacob Barr (49:27)
Okay, so I guess what I would just say is I would encourage those who are listening to, and to invite your younger in nursing school supporters or team members to look at this association. It's $30 a year, which by my standard, I think that's almost free. And the benefit is that you get to work with like-minded value-based

Mary Hodges (49:51)
Yeah, but that's nice.

Jacob Barr (49:57)
⁓ medical professionals, which sounds amazing. ⁓ So Mary, thank you so much for being on here. And would you close out this ⁓ podcast with a prayer and with those with expectation that those who are listening will join in and participate when they hear this down the road.

Mary Hodges (50:00)
That is true.

Okay, well, by obligation, I need to do a Hail Mary. So, as my name says, thank you. So Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Jacob Barr (50:18)
Sure. Okay.

Amen. Well, thank you so much, Mary, for being on here. I appreciate that you just being on here. I'm going to go ahead and stop it there and