Jacob Barr (00:00)
Close out of a few things. Sure. My phone is off because it will eventually ring.

Melody Marshall (00:06)
You keep your phone on loud all day.

Jacob Barr (00:10)
No, but it will somehow it'll turn on during a podcast and ring. here comes Desiree right now. Perfect. Let her in.

Melody Marshall (00:15)
you

Okay.

Jacob Barr (00:22)
Hey Desiree, we haven't started quite yet. ⁓ there you are. We didn't start quite yet. We're just getting ready to start.

Desirae Johnston (00:28)
Okay, cool. Sorry about that. Can you guys hear me okay now?

Jacob Barr (00:30)
No worries.

Yeah, your audio sounds fine. It's in good shape. ⁓

Desirae Johnston (00:34)
Okay, cool. I switched to my computer and

then the computer wouldn't have the camera working. Anyway, we're here.

Melody Marshall (00:41)
⁓ It's the enemy trying to discourage you. You're doing great.

Jacob Barr (00:41)
No worries.

Desirae Johnston (00:45)
Yep, yep.

Jacob Barr (00:46)
So

the way this platform works, if your internet glitches, just roll with it because it uploads at the end after I hit stop recording. So even if there's like an internet glitch, your computer will keep recording your audio and video and will upload when it can. And so it's a little bit better foolproof than like zoom or teams where the internet may actually break it. Maybe it were maybe teams and anyways.

All that I say is if it glitches, it'll be okay. All right, so I'll go ahead and get us started. Welcome to the Pro Life Team podcast. I'm Jacob. I'm here with Melody and Desiree. And today we're going to learn about Upstream. ⁓ Melody, would you introduce yourself and then Desiree, would you do the same? And yeah, just give a little background about who you are and then maybe touch on the organization mission as well.

Desirae Johnston (01:18)
Okay.

Melody Marshall (01:42)
Sure. Yeah. So my name is Melody Marshall. I'm one of the co-directors of Upstream Collaborative. I was just telling Jacob before we came on that I affectionately call me and my other two co-directors the tri-rectors, but that's not a real word. So you can just dismiss it from your brain. Yeah. We provide leadership for a collaboration of family preservation ministries across the country. And if you aren't familiar with the term family preservation, it is simply keeping families together. So it's focused on a

proactive preventative work to help support families so they can be preserved but then reach a point of thriving. And so we're excited to share kind of more of what that means with you guys today.

Jacob Barr (02:21)
Cool, Desiree, yeah, go ahead and give us your connection and backstory and ⁓ view of the mission.

Desirae Johnston (02:28)
Yeah, so my name is Desiree Johnston. I have kind of a long backstory, but I'll keep it super short today, but lifelong atheist and pro-choicer. And then I had my first encounter with Jesus Christ a year after having an abortion myself. And once I gave my life to Christ and experienced that love and that redemption and forgiveness of Christ, I promised the Lord that I would use

my story and the things that I've gone through in life to spread the gospel and to also just help other women and help save babies. I got plugged in with Upstream and love their mission, not just about protecting life at the abortion clinic, but how do we do life with these moms? How do we make them feel supported and make sure they have the wraparound care from their communities instead of just saying, okay, you chose to keep the baby. Good luck. You're on your own. How can we as a church

And how can we empower the church to really embrace these moms, love on these moms and love on their babies as well.

Jacob Barr (03:30)
Awesome. So, Melody, since you know Desiree's story and you know who Upstream is, would you pose a question either for yourself or Desiree that will help us learn about Upstream and the work that's being done along with Desiree's story?

Melody Marshall (03:47)
Yeah. ⁓ and Desiree, you have time to get a little more into your story. I told Jacob your story is way back in time. So I'll, I'll get you to your, I'll get you to some of the good parts, but, you know, I have been working in an area called crisis child hosting for a lot of years and kind of the main thing that we're doing is we're placing children in the homes of host families when a parent is walking through a hard time that makes it challenging to care for their kids. And so it's right before foster care. It's often.

Desirae Johnston (03:52)
I'm

Melody Marshall (04:17)
man, if we waited 20 more minutes to find a host family, these kids would be in the system. so ⁓ because of that, if you think about this river flowing downstream with kids maybe being in crisis in some way, we were at this spot on the stream that was right before things really fell apart. And that gave us this really unique vantage point upstream to say, what are the common things that are happening to these families that lead to them being in crisis over and over? And there were a few,

different types of organizations that Upstream Collaborative identified that, man, if we could figure out how to mobilize the church, we could line the banks of the stream in a really healthy way where no children would be falling in the water. And so those things are what I was talking about, the crisis child hosting, and then the other three are fatherhood organizations, ⁓ mentorship or discipleship, people who are really willing to pour one-on-one into young people and young adults, even after they're teenagers, and... ⁓

you know, teaching them about life and adult skills and how to do hard things. But then the fourth one is the pro-life movement. Man, families who are, you know, wanting to choose life, but say, I'm overwhelmed, I'm alone, I don't have anybody to walk alongside me. And so we kind of identified these four branches that needed to work together in order to really see families stay strong.

And we wanted to hire a leader in each of those spaces that would do a great job rallying people together to build best practices, share resources, not each have to reinvent the wheel, figure out how to be gospel focused and church driven in the work that they're doing. And so as we started to look for a leader in each of the spaces, we were really excited about this pro-life space because we felt like this was a huge opportunity for the church to not just go to the polls and not just

⁓ talk about being pro life and not even just choose life themselves, but say, Hey, I want you to choose life and I'm going to stand with you when you do. And so we were passionate about who this person was and how they were going to intersect with upstream collaborative and the other branches of the stream. And we found Desiree and we're interviewing her and I was like pinching myself so that I wasn't ugly crying during her interview because her story is so powerful. And yeah, Desiree, I would just love for you to share in particular.

How your abortion and how the Lord met you in that year afterwards really led to you being passionate about not just being pro-life, but being pro-whole abundant life for this family.

Desirae Johnston (06:55)
Yeah, absolutely. So a little bit of backstory, I guess I'll get a little bit more into it. I had gone through a big transition towards the end of my 20s. I had lived with an ex for eight years and we were never legally married. had a wedding but never signed the paperwork. It was a whole thing. COVID happened. Married but not married. And that relationship ended after eight years of living together. And I found myself feeling very broken and angry and

⁓ bitter and I didn't think love was real. I vowed I would never be in a monogamous relationship again ⁓ but being the worldly woman I was, I still wanted to have sex. I still wanted to enjoy the pleasures of life without having to commit myself to another person ever again because I didn't want to get hurt like that again. So long story short, my ex moves out.

I'm in this expensive luxury apartment by myself and trying to figure out how I'm gonna pay my bills and while also still trying to kind of scroll through the dating apps and the dating pool and I'm like, you know what? I'm already sleeping with these men on Tinder and Hinge and whatever. I made a vow to myself, okay, I'm never having sex for free again. And that's when I got into sex work. So I felt like I was accomplishing two goals at the same time. was getting that.

instant gratification of sex and intimacy and human connection without having to have any strings attached while also accomplishing the goal of being able to pay my rent because I went from having two incomes in our household to just myself. And that led me into a world that I would like to say I was never meant to see, but I also, think I've shared this with Melody too. I'm so grateful that I got to see just the depths of the darkness that exists in this world. And these aren't just

you know, the crazy, you know, wealthy billionaires that you don't see my real people's like, no, these are like dads at your kids school pickup line. And these are people in your community who are deeply troubled and depraved and just involved in some really dark things. So while engaged in that world, I was eventually kind of went from having sex with multiple different men to mostly just

one man. became like, I joined a sugar daddy website and we were mostly just seeing each other, but you know, he was also married and had two children and we were seeing each other for about three years. And then in October of 2022, I found out that I was pregnant and because I was always taught that mantra of my body, my choice, it was a no brainer. Okay, I'm just gonna have an abortion. No big deal.

It's just a clump of cells. This isn't a real person. I'm not that far along. It's going to be super easy. And I also just was really wrestling with the thought of keeping a child that was just conceived in really unfortunate circumstances. know, the father of the child was married to someone else and already had two children. I was just getting started in a new sales career and it was doing really well and didn't want to mess that up.

Jacob Barr (10:07)
Thank you.

Desirae Johnston (10:13)
all the things that people tell you that are good justifications of having an abortion. And I remember when I told my mom that I was pregnant, she was so excited, which was so disappointing to me because she was the one that always taught me, my body, my choice, hey, if you ever get pregnant, call me. I'll take you to the clinic. We never have to tell your dad. These are things that I was taught, the sexual ethic I was taught as a teenager. And then here I am at 28 years old, pregnant, calling my mom, and her response is,

Yay, you're going to be such a great mom. Congratulations. I remember just being so angry at her for that. So I went to have the abortion. The entire process was just so disordered and so evil looking back at it. But again, it's the thing that you do. I went to Planned Parenthood. First thing they make you do is sign a form saying, I understand that having an abortion is safer than having a pregnancy.

Jacob Barr (10:50)
you

Desirae Johnston (11:10)
Then they sit you in a dark windowless room to watch a little propaganda video. Then the ultrasound tech wheels in her little cart and says, hey, normally we're supposed to give you an ultrasound, but we're going to skip that part today because, and I quote, if you see it, you'll want to keep it. And then the doctor comes in with kooky colored glasses and the colorful outfit and just super jovial, almost like a child birthday party clown walking into the room.

Just saying, right, kiddo, I'm gonna go ahead and take care your problem today. Super simple. You're gonna take these two pills, one here in the office, one when you get home the next day. It's just like a heavy period. Easy in and out and you're done. Meanwhile, I'm shaking, I'm crying, I'm deeply wrestling with this decision because had my child not been conceived in the circumstances that they were conceived in, I otherwise would have loved to be a mom.

In my previous relationship, we'd actually tried to get pregnant and I'd been told years past that I probably wouldn't get pregnant naturally. So that's probably also why I was a little bit more lackadaisical about preventing pregnancy because I didn't think it was possible for me. And so yeah, I'm really, really wrestling and the doctor just hands me the two pills. I'm staring at them and she says, I need you to take the first one right now. I can't let you leave until you take that first dose.

And at that point, I didn't even know that abortion pill reversal was a thing because no one talks, no one in the pro-choice movement talks about that and no one gives you the choice to undo an abortion. They only want you to have the choice to have an abortion. So I took the pill and figured, okay, well, what's done is done. I go home, next day I take the next dose as directed and then I feel things start moving and it felt like period cramps.

go to the bathroom and I realized that medication, abortion is just like having a heavy period except for the fact that when I looked down as I'm cleaning myself up, instead of just seeing blood, I saw my lifeless child in my hands. again, at this point, I didn't believe in God. didn't believe, I didn't have much of a moral or sexual ethic that I adhered to. I was my own God. My own pleasure was all that mattered to me. But even in that moment, I was

looking at my dead child in my hand and I realized something about this is wrong. I don't know what. When I was in college, I was a biochem major. I remember one of the very first lessons you learn in biology is that all living beings, all living things have the same two goals in common. Whether you're a human being, a tree, a single cell organism, know, a flower, a giraffe.

the one thing that, or the two things that all living things have in common is the goal of survival and to survive and reproduce. And so seeing my lifeless child in my hand, I knew in that moment that this is biologically and scientifically disordered. Then after my abortion, I wish I could say, you know, life was so terrible and everything went downhill, but.

It didn't. I truly believe that it was child sacrifice. It was like I made a deal with the devil because after my abortion, I went on to have the most successful year of my life. I got in really great shape working out with a personal trainer. My sales career took off. I mean, we were seeing numbers that we had never seen in my office and making more money than I even knew what to do with on top of also having a sugar daddy paying my rent and paying for anything else I wanted to do.

I had more money at the time than I knew how to handle. And what people didn't know is that behind all the success and great things going on in my life, I was going home every night and crying myself to sleep, knowing and wishing, knowing that I would trade it all in an instant just to have my child back. I remember the anniversary of my due date passing and just being torn to shreds. The anniversary of my abortion passed by.

And that entire month, I was almost unable to get out of bed most days. And finally, around the one year mark, my personal trainer, we're working out together one morning and I'm pretty quiet, unusually quiet. And he looks at me and he knows I'm struggling with something but didn't say what. And he just looks at me and says, look Desiree, you don't have to tell me what you're going through. But whatever it is, just know that

God loves you and he already forgave you. And I just looked at him like, what? And he said, again, you don't have to tell me what's going on, but just know that God already forgave you. And I started sobbing, crying, and he starts recommending a local church and some local church podcasts to listen to. I just wasn't interested. I'm like, no, I'm not into the whole Jesus thing. Thank you, but I'm not into that. And what I didn't know,

at the time was I walked out the gym that day, completely changed forever because the Holy Spirit had finally gotten ahold of me. And I started seeing the Lord everywhere I looked. And I'd see like a Jesus billboard or people that I randomly knew or celebrities giving their life to Christ. I'm like, what is going on? OK, fine, God, I'll look into this church thing and look into these podcasts. So I look up one of the YouTube pastors that my trainer recommended, accidentally hit skip, went to a totally different video.

landed on a sermon about the adulterous woman and how the Pharisees brought the woman to Jesus to be stoned. And he said, who has not sinned shall cast the first stone. And eventually they all walked away and he didn't condemn the woman. He didn't shame the woman. All he did was say, sin no more. And that was the first message I needed to hear to heal my broken heart. And piece by piece, sermon by sermon, my heart started to become more full again. And then one morning I just

heard an audible voice of God just say, get up and go to church. And I didn't know what that meant. like, what church? I don't know what church to go to, but I just kept hearing, get up, go to church, get up, go to church. And then I went, sat down in the worship service, people with their hands up, looking all Jesusy and freaking me out, and I wasn't into it. Then pastor starts asking for money on my own grace, I'm gonna come ask for money, and he's like, but we're doing it different this week. know, anything you give is actually not going to the church, it's going to...

a different charitable organization. And if you're new here, we'll actually give, fill out a card on your seat, we'll give to an organization of your choice on your behalf. And I look at the card on my seat and the very first organization was a pregnancy resource center. And it was in that moment, I just felt God say, this is where you're supposed to be and this is what you're supposed to do. This is how I'm going to redeem this. So I gave my life to Christ in that moment. And I vowed to the Lord, I'm like, Lord, I will

I promise I will dedicate my life to saving babies. Just take this grief from me, heal this pain, and I will do it all for you." And he did. From that moment on, the grief was completely lifted. mean, if someone mentioned abortion, if I saw a baby, at that time it would send me into tears. And now I can confidently tell that story and joyfully tell that story knowing how much goodness

Jacob Barr (18:36)
Thank ⁓

Desirae Johnston (18:52)
the Lord has brought to my life and just knowing him, knowing his truth, knowing who he says I am, who people think I am based on my past actions. And now today I'm a member of that church that I went to visit and met my husband serving at that church. I'm now in my second trimester of our pregnancy. We got married in June, ⁓ this past June. We're pregnant on our first try. ⁓

getting very pregnant or being very pregnant right now. ⁓ And then, you came upon this opportunity to work with Upstream and I just felt like it was such a perfect fit because one of the biggest reasons, I mean, I tried to pick apart all the reasons why I need to have an abortion. Ultimately, what it all boiled down to was social isolation and not having support. So the reason I had that abortion was because

Jacob Barr (19:27)
Yeah, I so too.

Desirae Johnston (19:49)
I was a sex worker. I wasn't doing things with friends. I was doing things with married men behind closed doors. If I were to leave that life, well, who's gonna actually help me raise this baby? Who's actually gonna be in my corner? And now that I'm experiencing a full pregnancy for the first time, the first trimester has been so eye-opening. I praise God for giving me a difficult pregnancy.

because in the moments where I'm lying on the couch crying, feeling hopeless and feeling like I'm totally alone, like at times like God doesn't see me, I'm reminded Desiree, this is why we need to wrap our arms around moms. I have an amazing husband who will get Taco Bell for me at 11 o'clock at night or rub my back or rub my head and I'm not feeling well. I have an amazing mom who I can call at any hour and ask for advice or just

ask for words of comfort. And I think about how many women are boarding their babies simply because they don't have someone to call. They can't take time off of work. They can't lay on the couch all day. And we as a church have a duty and an obligation to these women to support them. If we're going to ask them to choose life, we have to choose to support them through that life.

Jacob Barr (21:12)
Wow, thank you, Desiree. Thank you for sharing your story and thank you for just representing an invitation for others to follow in these footsteps of healing and really following the footsteps of the woman at the well who received healing. ⁓ Thank you for echoing that. Melody, what are your thoughts? And then I'll you ask some follow-up questions.

Melody Marshall (21:37)
Yeah. Well, Desiree shared the link really well, ⁓ just between that social isolation piece and what a lot of our families are struggling with. think there's probably a lot of people who don't know that social isolation is one of the top four predictors of childhood abuse and neglect. And it's also one of the top reasons that social isolation is one of the top four predictors of childhood abuse and neglect.

Jacob Barr (21:59)
You said that one more time?

Melody Marshall (22:07)
And so it's also a leading reason why families in pregnancy centers are saying, I want to choose life, but I'm all alone. And so if we were to realize that link and say, man, this family told us right when they first got pregnant, we're all alone. And then when they do choose life, about 90 % of the time they will choose to parent. So it's not that they were alone and they're sending their kid to be adopted, they're alone. And then they add a child into that circumstance.

And so that aloneness can often lead to a crisis down the road. And we want as a church to able to surround and support them earlier. There's this great book by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey called, Happened to You? And they did a study on what's called ACEs scores, which is adverse childhood experiences. And you kind of receive a score out of zero to 10 based on what hard things you've been through as a kid. And the higher your score is,

As you can predict, the more likely it is you'll have a poor adult outcome, like teen pregnancy or imprisonment, homelessness, what have you. And then the lower your score is more likely you'll have a good adult outcome. ⁓ and what they found out though, was there was a large portion of kids statistically significant who were having these high ACEs scores and still having a good adult outcome. So they did a huge research study on why is that? Why are some people able to have really hard childhoods?

lots of trauma and still remain stable. And what they found is so interesting, it's, I'm not gonna be able to quote it exactly, but basically it says that your connectedness to family and community has the power to counterbalance your adversity. And so there's something about not being alone that changes the game for people. And a huge piece of what Upstream Collaborative is trying to do is mobilize the church to surround and support families.

so that they aren't alone. So we have worked ⁓ to establish, train and grow this program called the My Village Model, where we create teams of wraparound support in church partnerships near pregnancy centers. And so these teams consist of two to four families. And when ⁓ a woman like Desiree is at a pregnancy center and she says, you know, I want to choose life, but I'm all alone or I'm wrestling with this decision and I don't have anyone else to talk to.

The people at the pregnancy center can say, hey, we'd love to get you connected to this My Village team. That team can do, cause it's scary to say yes. Nobody's like, great, I want a hundred friends during this crisis in my life. That's not what they're doing. They're actually doing really practical, helpful things. So they can drive that mom to her prenatal appointments. If she does have other kids, they can babysit during those appointments. They throw her a baby shower.

They do a meal train after the baby comes. They do these really practical things that we know how to do for each other inside of our churches, but we've somehow lost sight of going outside of our churches to where people are really socially isolated and saying, here, let us take what we're offering each other that's kind of bouncing around on the inside of our walls and let's offer it to those outside of the church who are truly socially isolated. And I've been doing this work now for several years, like I said, and I can't tell you how many women

take an Uber to the hospital all by themselves. They labor and deliver with nobody holding their hands. And then they take an Uber home from the hospital with this new little baby and they have no team. I mean, when I had babies, my mom was at my house, my mother-in-law helped clean. I had ⁓ friends who were bringing me meals and praying for me and coming to my house and playing cards with me when I was bored and on bed rest. so...

There's all of these things that we know how to do. It's not rocket science. We just have to figure out how to do it for these families who are socially isolated. And so I would love to ask Desiree and she, I've never asked her this before. but what do you think were some of those practical needs that you had during that season or maybe during the season that you're in now, what are some practical ways that you're like, man, I would love to do this for a mom who was in my shoes or I wish somebody would, would have done this for me.

Desirae Johnston (26:21)
Yeah. boy. I'm on the spot. ⁓ Practical needs. Back then, the biggest practical need was just a friend because I am from Michigan. I moved to Ohio, you know, eight plus years ago with an ex who I broke up with. And in that breakup was pretty much every familial connection I had here in Ohio. So just, just

Practically, I just needed someone to say hey, you're not by yourself and like truly Jen genuinely mean it because the only friends I had were co-workers and every time I switched jobs the quote-unquote friends that I had would switch based on my job I didn't have a true community that I was a part of ⁓ Now that I'm pregnant again and seeing More of the depths of pregnancy and some of that support

I mean, has included friends just praying over me, ⁓ someone checking in on me regularly just saying, hey, how are you feeling? ⁓ All the girls in my Bible study group, are regularly just reaching out. I mean...

I'm naturally kind of an isolator. That's how I ended up in a socially isolated situation to begin with. I'm an introvert. I like to spend time alone, which is in some ways restorative to me, but I also know is a space that the enemy uses to keep me by myself and to let me doom cycle in my own head. Just having friends to just genuinely reach out randomly and say, hey, do you need anything?

Do you want to come over for game night? Like a reason to get out. I mean, just being on this call, like I had a reason to shower today. I had a reason to put on some makeup and actually pull myself together, which I'm realizing when you're feeling so terrible, especially first and second trimester, in my case, working from home, working remotely, I have very.

little reason to take care of myself physically and I'm noticing how that is even impacting my mental space during this pregnancy. So just having reasons, someone said, hey, let's go get lunch today or come to Bible study on Monday night or let's see, having someone offer to go pick up food. We had friends from our group who know that

I've been struggling and Jake's been working nonstop to keep me alive like a house plant. We had friends offer like, can we cook you guys dinner? I know Jake can do it, but he's also going to work every day and caring for you in every other way. And dad needs help just as much as mom does because dad's carrying the entire weight of our entire household right now. So just it's the little things. It's just feel it.

Yes, obviously rides to doctor's appointments. That's huge. Having someone hold your hand while delivering. That's huge. But having people who you know actually care about you and are going to be there for you and your baby, ⁓ I think are the things that matter the most. And it's the little things.

Melody Marshall (29:33)
Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. And if I can just, I totally agree. It's like, we're going to put those things on paper, how we're going to give a ride and a meal train and a baby shower, because that's going to be so winning to somebody who's like, well, I don't even know these people. What are they doing? But they're meeting these practical needs. But actually the bigger win within it is what you're talking about Desiree. It's just not being alone. It's having people who care about your pregnancy, who make you feel like, man, I have value and worth as a person.

I ⁓ have dignity as the mom of this baby that matters. I'm doing something that matters. And people who are like, man, this is what my labor and delivery was like, or this is the hard things that I faced with ⁓ breastfeeding or whatever they're walking through. And I think the thing that is super cool, one of the pregnancy directors here in Columbus, Ohio said, women should have a choice between abortion, adoption, and staying vulnerable. Those should not be the only three choices.

And that, but that is what it's going to be like unless the church steps up and changes something. And so how do we take the pregnancy from being abortion adoption or staying vulnerable into maybe the actual reason that this woman gets to hear the gospel, that she gets to become part of a community, that her child has a totally different generational experience than maybe she did growing up, because now she is knit into a group of people who care about her, who love her, who are checking on her.

My family hosted a little girl in our home eight years ago and we're still in community with that family. Our kids are friends. We hang out at the holidays and other times. And ⁓ there's a relationship that was built there that I don't think we would have known how to start if we hadn't ⁓ been able to be introduced to her during a crisis in her life. And that was hard and messy and bumpy. But man, what the Lord does, I think, is he takes the really hard things and restores them and redeems them into something beautiful.

Even your story Desiree is, it's terrible. I mean, it's terrible. I'll just call it what it is. It's awful that you went through that. It's sad, but look at what the Lord is turning it into this beautiful thing where now you're celebrating the life of your baby. You know Jesus in a way that you wouldn't have otherwise. And you met Jake at your church and now you've got this whole community and you're working with us.

And it's just like the Lord to take those things and turn them into something beautiful. And so I think that that is something that the church needs to open their eyes to is it's not just this big, ugly, hairy, scary thing. is the opportunity that we have to share the gospel when we say yes to also loving people well and being willing to be part of their messy stories. It's not always going to be pretty. It's not always going to be easy, but it's also not undoable. It is.

what the Lord has called the church to, we believe.

Desirae Johnston (32:26)
I would even like to add an extra little caveat to that too. ⁓ As someone who goes to a rather affluent church, ⁓ most of the members of our congregation do pretty well. They live in one of the most expensive zip codes in Ohio. And even if you are not rolling in the dough at my church,

you've got food on your table, you've got your lights on, you've got a house over your head. Not to say that people don't have financial struggles, because they absolutely do, but specifically for members of church congregations like mine, I just want to say writing a check is easy. Tithing is easy. It may feel hard to you because we all have our different grips and...

thoughts and beliefs around money. We're called to tithe. Tithing and giving financially is expected of us. That's just what we do. But God calls us to something so much bigger than that. Service is so much bigger than writing a check. It's easy to donate diapers to a diaper drive. It's easy to send a donation to a Pregnancy Resource Center. The hard part, and I think the part that we as a church

Jacob Barr (33:40)
Thank you.

Desirae Johnston (33:47)
have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable with is actually getting relationally involved with vulnerable populations. The people that maybe don't look like the person at my church, who don't live like the people at my church, who don't have the same shared experiences as most of the people at my church. It's easy to love on your own congregation, but can you go love on that person who lives over there? Can you go love on that person who...

doesn't have the same resources and access that you have and love them just as hard and just as well as you love the other people in your congregation.

Jacob Barr (34:23)
Yeah, that's a good point because often we're called to have community and love someone who doesn't agree. We're not on the same page on certain things in life. And yet to still have conversation, to still have dialogue, to still have care, you know, provide care. So I feel like this is a really, I want to take a different and interesting pivot in this podcast. And we got 12 minutes before we went out of time, maybe a few more minutes, but I'd like to just sort of

I'd like to invite those who are listening to have some really good homework, which is to reevaluate how the word community is a part of your church values or your organization or your Pring C help organization or your pro-life org ⁓ values. like, every one of those orgs would have a statement of faith.

and probably has a mission statement, vision statement, and maybe a list of values. But I would like to invite everyone who's listening to consider the word community and then working through how that might ⁓ be written by your leadership team to embody this concept that we're talking about, which is to ⁓ come alongside those who you're serving and those who you're connected with to really

bring them in to the group and to embrace the value of community. And so Desiree and Melody, would you reflect on this brainstorming concept of inviting those who are listening about to really embrace that word as a value and how that might look?

Melody Marshall (36:03)
Yeah, I think, ⁓ when we first started building the My Village model with these wraparound teams, we were, we did a lot of research. talked to a lot of major players in the pro-life space about church engagement. What is, what is the support from your churches look like? And we got the same answer over and over and over. It's diapers, wipes, and a check where they're a check. And even I, when I was, ⁓

19 maybe I was looking for ways to volunteer in the pro-life space. I reached out to my local pregnancy center and they were like, yeah, we, you know, you could come in and, work on the grounds, like plant flowers around our building. And, and I was like, okay. And I did that for a little bit. And then it just wasn't, I wasn't engaging directly with the families. And so I feel like I lost interest over time. And I would say that a major tenant of upstream collaborative is.

getting your churches engaged. And so that goes both ways. It goes from the pregnancy center and it goes from the church and that partnership flowing both ways is gonna matter a lot. ⁓ In Psalm 68, it says, God sets the lonely in families. We can't just be like, yay God, you set the lonely in families. We are the families, like inside of the church, we're the families that God is trying to set the lonely into. And so we have to be available for that and be able to steward our homes and our families well.

⁓ And so as a church, are you talking about the way it is gonna change your people when they get relationally engaged, when they repurpose their homes to be used for the Lord instead of just that's my safe resting place. But instead, man, my family is something that I can steward for the kingdom. And my kids' lives are being changed because there's people in our home that look different than them and have a different lived experience. ⁓ I think that...

I'm not great at writing like mission or vision statements. So you got to take everything I say and just throw it in chat GPT and it'll come up with a cute little phrase for you. But I think we have to recognize that God has called his church to be the hands and feet and that the Bible says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It does not say the gates of hell will not prevail against Melody Marshall or Desiree or Jacob or even ⁓ the pregnancy centers of the world.

It says against the church. And so how do we truly activate and mobilize our churches? So now I'm just speaking to pregnancy centers. How do you invite, how do you have layers of things you're inviting your church into so that the families that are in your center that you are brokenhearted for, because it goes way beyond them choosing life. You know, the hard circumstances they're facing. How are you inviting the church into that and giving the church a way to serve that is relational? And are you committed to doing that and to know

that that type of church engagement is not going to decrease your funding. We got to stop worrying about our funding, but I will tell you from personal experience, you'll probably receive more funding from a church that's also in your center serving your families than you would from a church who is just sending you a check every month and receiving a list of names to pray for. So those things are good. They're important. I don't want to take away from them, but I think it takes a strong partnership between the church and the pregnancy center to really figure out what that community looks like. And there has to be, I think,

some conviction on both sides. The church needs to be convicted that this is their work to do, and the center needs to be convicted that God called the church to do it, and we're not just gonna do it all on our own. And so how are we gonna wrestle through that tension together and kind of rebuild that trust between the nonprofit and the church in your city? I don't know if that answered your question at all. That's where the spirit left.

Desirae Johnston (39:40)
you

Jacob Barr (39:41)
Well, you

know, that's actually it does. There's layers to community and ways in which it can be embraced. So Desiree, what are your thoughts about churches or an organization really trying to revisit or embrace the word community as a value of their group?

Desirae Johnston (40:00)
Yeah, so I'm gonna take you on a little detour. So back in my sugar baby sex work days, I remember the man that got me pregnant.

I remember him often telling me that he loved me and I remember believing it. before I knew Christ, the fruits of that love was, well, my rent is always paid. There's always a roof over my head. If I need for anything, he writes a check and makes sure that I always have money for all the things. I mean, I had several car issues happen one year. I was like five cars in one year. And like, he made sure that

I always had money for a new car, which I can't think of any people that could afford five cars in a year. But I still felt empty. And he would say, I love you, I love you. We're gonna be together one day. I love you, I love you. I'm like, you keep saying that. You keep pouring all this money into me. Why don't I feel loved? And I remember, this just shows the total grace and mercy of the Lord. Even as I was first coming to Christ, I was still seeing him.

I was like, yes, God, I'm going to live a moral life, but I still need to pay my bills. I still need this man paying my rent. And I was under some crazy delusion. like, maybe we'll both get saved, and then we'll get married and live happily ever after. I remember going to church on Sunday and coming home and talking to him about Jesus as if he was my husband and not someone else's. ⁓

But as I started to come to know the Lord more and know the character of the Lord and seeing how self-sacrificial the love of Jesus is for me, that's when I started questioning his fake love. And I remember we had a big ball out fight. I'm like, you don't love me because love is sacrifice. He's like, look at all the things I sacrifice. Look how much money I give you. I'm like, but you're a wealthy man. This is not a sacrifice for you. This is easy for you.

And then in Ephesians 5 verse 2 says, little life filled with love, following the example of Christ, he loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God. And so when it comes to community, I told you I'm going to big circle to give a loop here. When it comes to community and loving our community, that love, we as a church are called to give a Christ-like love.

And Christ-like love is sacrificial love, sacrificing of our time, sacrificing of our comfort. giving and practicing generosity is important and it's beautiful, especially when you feel like you don't have it and sometimes you're like, I really don't know how I can afford to tithe this month, but to keep it on the autopay and keep tithing anyway, that's important. But the real sacrifice is of our time.

want to sit at home on Sunday and watch TV with my husband, am I doing that or am saying, let me actually go spend time with someone that I'm not super familiar with in my own church community. Let me step outside of my church community and broaden the walls of what I consider community, that part too, and show a sacrificial love.

not just to people in my home, not just to my family, not to my inner circle, but the broad community. So I think one thing that we as a church can do better at when it comes to defining community or comes to the word community is how exactly are we defining community? Is it just our church? Is it just our city limits? Is it just our zip code? Is it just the people who live, look and act like us? Or where do the boundaries of that community end?

and where we call to give that sacrificial love.

Jacob Barr (43:53)
Hmm. Wow. Well, I had some more questions, but we're running a little short on time. But before we run out, I want ask you guys both to be able to pray here at the end. ⁓ But briefly, Desiree, would you share just some thoughts about where you saw God's fingerprints, especially in that moment when you dedicated your life to this new direction? Can you speak about where you see God's fingerprints maybe in that space?

Desirae Johnston (44:23)
gosh, all over it. mean, like I said, when I first came to Christ, I came very boldly, but also still like with one foot out, but I still want to cling onto my old life just in case. Just in case this God thing doesn't work out, I want to be able to have that sugar daddy I can fall back on. ⁓ And then about a year, about nine months into my walk,

I had gotten the opportunity to get baptized. And after I was baptized, I felt the weight of my sin kind of falling off of me. That was the first time I ever shared my testimony to anyone outside of my mom. I shared it on stage to my entire church thinking, I'm never gonna actually get plugged into this community. And I'm like, everyone I know ⁓ now knows the hardest thing about me.

And then that's when I began kind of wrestling. I'm like, okay, Desiree, you literally been washed clean, made new, and you're still having sex with this man for money. And I remember like fighting, kind of like, I used to always joke and say, me and God are beefing right now, because I want to be with him, but he's making it real hard, because he's making me give up. The cost of being with God is going to be my whole life. I'm just, I don't know if I'm ready to let go. And I remember,

My time with God is typically at like 4.30 in the morning before anyone else is awake, either reading my Bible or writing my prayer journal. And I remember being up one morning writing in my journal, my God, I know I have to stop.

this sexual sin, because even though I was having sex for money, I was like, this is just to pay my bills, I kind of block it out. But like my dating life, like actual dating, I'm like trying to find a husband, I was like, well no, I'm not having sex till marriage. I'm like, this is so disordered, this is so backwards. So I remember writing just a prayer to God, I'm like, God, I know that what you have for me is so much bigger, but it's so hard to trust, because practically I have to survive, I have to live.

And I just remember feeling God's voice just saying, do you not trust that I'm going to provide for you? And so I ended up blocking that sugar daddy, cutting things off completely, ending all ties. And I'm like, OK, God, the math isn't making, the math isn't mapping because this new job I had working for Turning Point USA, actually working for Charlie Kirk, paid a lot less than my previous sales job that I had left.

did not pay enough to cover my bills without my sugar daddy and just, God kept telling me, trust me, I will provide. And I tell you, for four or five months straight, despite not even making enough money to cover my bills, every month, miraculously, God was providing. I mean, there was one month where I got a direct deposit in my bank account from two jobs ago that owed me money and it was exactly what I needed to pay my rent.

And just like so many moments like that, I'm like, okay, God, okay, God, you've got it. And I don't say that just to say people should willy nilly just like, God's got it, hands up. You have to have some agency and you have to make wise choices. But ⁓ when you're really struggling, holding on to sin because you feel like you genuinely cannot live without it, I promise, promise, promise.

When it comes to walking away from sin, God makes it possible. God makes the impossible possible. I've seen it in my own life.

Jacob Barr (47:51)
Wow, that is, those are, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that story that just really just shows how God's provision is all around, all around you. ⁓ So Desiree, would you close this out in prayer and then Melody, would you pick it up after that and we'll wrap it up.

Desirae Johnston (48:11)
Yeah, absolutely.

Heavenly Father, I just thank you for this space and this time and this opportunity to just spread your word and celebrate the gift and joys of life, God, I thank you for the opportunity and privilege to live in a time such as this where we have the ability to meet virtually with people on all different parts of the world.

to share a message like this across the world to anyone who has a desire to listen or has a desire to seek and pursue your truth, Lord. Lord, thank you for making this time the most accessible time to know you and know your word for anyone seeking and wanting to find Lord. I just thank you for what Jacob is doing through this podcast, what you're doing through Upstream, the way that we're able to encounter families and empower the church and really bolden and strengthen our

church communities in loving and caring for your children, I'll pass it to Melody.

Melody Marshall (49:15)
Amen, Lord, I just thank you ⁓ for this time, agree and prayer that we're thankful for Jacob and the podcast that he's leading out in and the way that he is amplifying the voice of the pro-life movement. know Desiree and I both feel this weight right now to be extra bold with our words. And so we pray God that you would call your people to stand up for what's right, to be bold in sharing their gospel.

⁓ to be living out your love for the least of these. God, not just talking about it, not just voting a certain way, but that we would be people who are obviously in our cities and in the world living for you, Lord. And we just pray that you would be glorified through our talk today, that you'd be glorified in the work that we are doing day to day. We pray, God, that because the church ⁓ says yes to supporting these families relationally,

that abortion numbers would plummet. God, regardless of what's happening in the government, Lord, that they would plummet because your people are being your people. God, we know that you love the life that you have created and we pray that you would preserve it. We pray that you'd preserve the families, your design for the family and for the church. We love you, Lord, so much. Amen.

Desirae Johnston (50:30)
Amen.

Jacob Barr (50:31)
Amen. I'm going to stop it there.