The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 55 with Brian Johnston | Talking About Before & After Dobbs

The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 55 with Brian Johnston | Talking About Before & After Dobbs
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Listen to Brian Johnston and Jacob Barr talk about the state of the nation before the Dobbs case and after the Dobbs case.

Summary

This is Jacob Barr, and in my recent Pro-Life Team Podcast, I had an enlightening conversation with Brian Johnston about the implications of the Dobbs decision and the shift in the pro-life movement’s focus post-Roe v. Wade. Brian emphasized the importance of understanding what Roe v. Wade actually did and how many pro-lifers didn’t fully grasp its legal implications. He pointed out that Roe v. Wade was less about abortion rights and more about empowering doctors to make decisions about abortions, altering the medical profession significantly.

Brian also discussed how the Dobbs decision is a pivotal change, shifting the power back to the states to protect lives, which was originally usurped by Roe v. Wade. This devolution of power to the states, he argued, is critical for the pro-life movement to understand and act upon effectively.

Furthermore, Brian critiqued the approach of the pro-life movement under Roe, which he felt was clouded by moral outrage rather than a deep understanding of the legal and societal shifts brought about by Roe v. Wade. He emphasized that the pro-life movement needs to bring clarity and focus on changing laws at the state level, as Dobbs now permits.

Our discussion also veered into the various facets of the pro-life movement, including crisis pregnancy centers, sidewalk counseling, and legislative advocacy. Brian stressed the necessity of engaging in civic processes and understanding the workings of the law to bring about substantial changes in abortion laws at the state level.

In summary, our conversation revealed the need for a strategic, well-informed approach in the pro-life movement in the post-Dobbs era, focusing on state laws and the civic engagement required to protect the unborn effectively.

Relevant hashtags for this podcast include: #ProLifeMovement, #DobbsDecision, #RoeVWade, #StateLaws, #CivicEngagement, #LegalImplications, #AbortionLaws, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #ChangeTheLaw, #ProtectTheUnborn.

Transcript

The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

Jacob Barr :

Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i am Jacob Barr i’m here with Brian Johnston and we’re going to talk about the state of our laws before Dobbs and now where we find ourselves today. After Dobbs. I was I have two. Well, one idea is I was going to ask you what you would like to talk about. The other idea was I was going to say we could essentially talk as if we just sat down to have like a virtual lunch together and we’re just talking about this, the state of the pro-life world, and let it go where it goes.

Brian Johnston :

Well, same thing. This is what I’m thinking. I believe the pro-life movement needs to understand what the Dobbs decision actually does. Part of the problem. Part of the problem is the pro-life movement never liked abortion. That’s true. But the pro-life movement never really understood what Roe V Wade did. They just say, well, it’s about abortion i hate abortion, so I just hate it. They never understood it. And now that Dobbs has under Dobbs has not addressed your feelings on abortion. That isn’t what Dobbs has done. Dobbs has addressed a very specific legal decision by a very specific Supreme Court, which was misguided, and that’s what Dobbs has done. But people haven’t looked at what Roe really did. They are confused about Roe, and there’s many pro lifers i’ll ask him, hey, what did Roe do? Well, it legalized abortion, the first trimester, and then afterwards for these special hard cases i think there’s all sorts of fog that the culture has encouraged people to view Roe with. And that’s why right now, public opinion polling shows the majority of Americans, they still like Roe. The majority of Americans still like Roe, but they don’t know what it is. And pro lifers never explained it to them pro lifers always took the approach. I don’t like abortion. I’m a moral person. Are you moral or not? And so the public has not understood what Roe did. Big problem, big problem now we have to go. Now, what is Dobbs doing? What has Dobbs done? How does that affect the pro-life movement? Critically important questions, unless those are wrestled with pro lifers, will continue meandering in the fog, which had been the case under Roe. There was a lot of confusion under Roe in the pro-life movement, and we have to bring clarity that’s our job if we’re especially if we claim to be spiritual people because our God is not a God of confusion, we need to bring clarity. What did that law actually do? What does Dobbs actually allow? Now we can go after then what Dobbs actually allows in removing that heinous law roe V Wade. Very important predicate.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, I think that sounds good. We could just keep going i think this might be a good beginning and so let, yeah, so we’re so let’s go ahead and define what Roe is or was and yeah and then we can go into what Dobbs is and what it what it is today.

Brian Johnston :

Right and what we can now do. So yeah, very specifically, folks misunderstood and I believe it was intentional the more I read the writings of black men and the commentators of even pro abortion advocates that agree with the conclusion we want abortion, and yet those same pro abortion advocates look at the Roe V Wade decision and say this is wacky. So you have, and many people now know, Alan Dershowitz who was nominated for the Supreme Court. He’s now a commentator on Fox News a lot of conservative programs because at least he studied the Constitution. But Dershowitz? Lawrence Tribe. Name any other legal expert that was pro abortion and you will see that they said Roe V Wade. Even though I’m pro-choice Roe V Wade does not make sense. Why weren’t pro lifers talking about that? Why not? That’s what we should focus on. It was a law that should never have been law. Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg and sometimes I play it i won’t play it now, but if you want, I will at the end and you can dub it back in i have a direct Ruth Bader, yeah.

Jacob Barr :

I think we had that on the last podcast where she essentially was saying that she, yeah, she was well, she had some negative thoughts about Roe versus Wade and the.

Brian Johnston :

Way it was structured. That’s right because she understood the legal implications of what it did. And again, in my book, which we talked about last and there it is. No, it’s over there. Evil twins. Evil twins roe and Doe. I explained that Roe and Doe together did something very dramatic. Yes, we know that it overturned the laws of all 50 states every state had a presupposition that some were along the line that’s a human being. It’s a human being. It’s a human baby. The laws in those states offered protection, but Roe through those protections out. We all know that, right? But people need to read Roe because Blackman was very specific when the case was brought they wanted the right feminists it was argued by the radical feminists from Texas. It’s a class action on behalf of all Texas women. They wanted the right to perform their own abortions. They wanted to write the right to their own body, and we’ve heard these from feminism all along. It’s my body it’s my choice. Explicitly in Roe V Wade, Justice Blackmun said no, I can’t legalize that. And nowhere in the Constitution has the US government said you have the right to your own body. That’s not a constitutional principle. You do not have that right you may seek an abortion. What Roe V Wade gave women was the right to seek an abortion. But all authority to do and decide if this abortion should happen was given to one person as long as they had an MD after their name. And he almost says that specifically if you have an MD after your name, you’re a noble person. We’re going to let your decisions matter. It empowered only doctors to do abortions. Very important. But in so doing, it changed Western civilization. So yes, we now started killing babies and people who are moral like you and me, say, wait a second, we’re uncomfortable with that. But people who study civilizations, cultural anthropologists, it’s called in a fancy term. But how cultures really historians, people who understand how societies work, say no if doctors are now free to kill whenever they want because that’s what Roe V Wade said. Roe V Wade said, yeah, there’s all sorts of let’s talk about, let’s confuse you he intentionally put that in to confuse people. When does life begin? Jacob, I want to you and you need to come up with that argument let’s argue that and you can get into your theology and then I come up and there’s Christians say no. Life begins with the breath. Look at the Bible. And that’s somebody else’s And he intentionally wanted that tangent. And there was a reason for that. He wanted moral people to get upset because he wanted them to be distracted. He was about to change Western civilization. He declared the Hippocratic Oath. Throw it out the window. If a doctor in his own head decides he wants to kill this human baby, that’s all that matters. I’m empowering the abortionist with the authority to kill now that’s what the decision said. What Dobbs? The Dobbs decision came from the Constitution and in the US Constitution, Alito said hang on. And the other judges agreed. Wait a second. Every state before Roe V Wade, every state was exercising its authority to protect the lives within that state’s jurisdiction. So it is every state’s authority to protect the lives. And Roe V Wade violated that state’s rights to protect lives. We’re going to give it back to the states. The states have a constitutional explicit authority in fact, it’s a duty. And even black men use that phrase deriscibly. He admitted that the compelling state interest to protect life is sometimes referred to as a duty. And of course it is. But he took it away from the States, and he gave it to one person, an abortionist. Dobbs now says, wait, we’re striking Roe V Wade, that kook. And as I said, pro abortion legal scholars. They knew that Roe V Wade was this foggy concoction meant to appeal to emotions, by the way. And if you read my book, you’ll understand why. Because what Blackman did is he wanted to justify a crime. Every state in the union said if an abortionist kills a baby, we have statutes we have laws. Blackman professionally, before he ever came to the bench, his whole world was protecting doctors from prosecution. He was the Mayo Clinic’s head guy and the Mayo Clinic, he said in the Mayo Clinic still says it’s the preeminent medical institution in the world. He was the preeminent attorney for the preeminent medical institution of the world. So what he does in row is what every defense counsel does, what the OJ Simpson defense counsel did. Look, we’re going to talk about whether or not OJ is killer we’re going to get there. We’re going to get there. But remember, as defense counsel, I have to get you to question. There’s so many factors we have to look at first. You know, there was apparently somebody hitting golf balls at Cato Kalin’s house. Who was that it wasn’t OJ because he wasn’t there. Could that have been the killer? What about these footprints outside what about the knife this isn’t the knife. What about the glove does the glove fit? If it does not fit, you must acquit. So a good defense counsel’s job is to get you confused, because if there’s any shadow of a doubt that what you think was a crime, maybe it was justified. Maybe there’s other factors. So all of Roe V Wade, and he took from the feminist handbooks the materials that have been submitted to him by the feminists throughout history feminists have wanted the unlimited. He took all those reasoning. What about overpopulation? What about this? What if she’s been raped what all the what is? That’s the job of defense lawyer that’s what Roe V Wade is. It is to confuse you in Doe versus Bolton, he confirms. I’m giving only doctors i’m not giving this to women can’t go out and start doing their own abortions anytime it is primarily a medical decision that’s explicitly in Roe V Wade and Adobe Bolton it’s companion decision, he says i’m giving this authority only to doctors. So the feminists were upset, but they’re saying that is what Roe did. It didn’t do that today they’re campaigning now, bring us to Dobbs and they’re saying we’ve got to return Roe. We need Roe. They don’t want Roe. They want to go far beyond roe said No, women don’t have a right to do with their body what they want. It’s explicit. Roe explicitly said no it is only at this is a medical decision and we’re not going to have people coming up with their own forms of abortion and doing it in any place they want. That’s going to be a bloody mess all over the nation. Roe is explicit on that we’re giving it only to doctors now the states can come up with their own laws. It isn’t up to an individual as to when somebody lives and dies. No individual should have that authority. Under the US Constitution, each and every state outlines what are the laws regarding homicide, what are the laws regarding murder. And in every state they’re slightly different. Homicide in Nevada is slightly different there’s degrees of homicide, and that’s all determined by the state legislature. And that state legislature is voted on by you in every, each and every state. And you can ask that state legislator, hey, can we change the homicide laws to do this and you can lobby that. The people have a voice in those laws. So also each state has laws about killing. Some states have death penalty laws, others don’t now we don’t California. So it is the authority of the state. That’s this debate. That’s been the debate in Roe V Wade all along. It is the authority of the state to protect human lives or to determine which human lives are not to be protected. And if the violation comes, what’s the punishment for doing that? I’m personally a big fan of the Texas law doesn’t merely have a criminal statute that says, OK, it’s against the law in Texas, There is a civil provision. And that’s important because under criminal statutes, again, understand the law, Under criminal statutes, you have to have the prosecutor say, OK, well, we’re going to bring a case against this abortionist. Well, guess what? Some prosecutors won’t. You were seeing that now we’re seeing a lawless culture on many items. California is 1 where there’s breaking and entering and stealing from jewelry stores. And there’s prosecutors say, well, we’re just going to, we’re going to write a ticket we’re not going to arrest them there’s no bail because I’m the prosecutor. That’s known as prosecutorial discretion. That happened, by the way, even before Roe, with the Casey decision in Pennsylvania, that the government, then governor of Pennsylvania, decided not to enforce the laws of Pennsylvania and told his staff, his health department do not inspect abortion clinics. We’re not into that i’m the governor. I’m not going to enforce that law. And he happened to be a Republican and he was a well known pro abortion Republican. But he didn’t use his power properly. Under the new Texas law, when an abortion is done in your harm, if I’m a parent and you talked my daughter into getting a secret abortion, I didn’t know about it. Well, you that’s a harm to her. It’s a harm to my grandchild and it’s a harm to me you killed my grandchild. I’m suing you son of a gun. I am coming after you and I’m going to litigate you because I don’t want you making money off of killing my baby, my grandbaby. Texas law now allows that is a chilling effect on the abortion industry because now people who are harmed, they have an answer, they have a remedy, they have a recourse if you only give it to the prosecutors. They’re politically motivated and they may not enforce the abortion laws and we’ve seen that happen again. It’s happened in California many times. It’s happening. We have certain laws that are the law in California, but Governor Gavin Newsom isn’t going to enforce it because he’s free to. He wants women free. So he’s not going to enforce those laws. And he has, because he’s the chief executive, Prosecutorial discretion, as does the attorney general, have prosecutorial discretion, as does each and every county District Attorney. So if you pass criminal laws, you’re giving all the authority back to the state, but it doesn’t mean you’re empowering an end to abortion. If those people are politicized, and right now many of them are many who should be prosecuted, the evil things are refusing to do so for political reasons. So I personally in the post Dobbs era looking at the right now, there is a right to sue abortionist. The state can go after them if the state decides to. But some states are also helping by saying an individual who’s been harmed. It isn’t any individual, but an individual who has been harmed may get remedies in civil court. And that’s when the abortions go, Oh my God, I’m going to start losing money i’m going to start, I have to fight these cases. I got to find another medical business than killing Davis. That’s the most effective because it deals with reality. It deals with hardcore reality. So in the postdogs era, doctors no longer have a right to do whatever they want. The states now have the authority to determine if babies are going to be killed and if so, under what circumstances some states are coming up with, well, we’re going to say six months we’re going to say this many weeks, We’re going to allow for these conditions. Personally, my personal I don’t go in that direction. But I like the idea no, Doctor shouldn’t kill. That’s my that’s my premise. I’m a big fan of the Hippocratic. I used to really like the medical profession. I used to believe, as literally was the assertion in row and Black men believed, Black men believe that of all society, the highest and most noble profession was the medical profession at the very top because the doctor swears that they’ll only care for the patient and never harm them. They are self sacrificing in principle because of the Hippocratic oaths. I actually agree with that, but he happened to throw out the Hippocratic Oaths and change the entire profession.

Jacob Barr :

You know, when the Hippocratic Oath was thrown out, like, was it the same was it 1973 in the same year that reverses, Wade?

Brian Johnston :

Yeah, no for our particular laws, yes, other countries have done it. Germany, by the way progressive countries always it is. And that’s what progressivism and again, without getting too detailed, but you’ll see it, progressivism is an attitude. Hey, we got to go somewhere. We have. We have a destiny. And so a lot of young kids love progressivism yeah, i want a destiny i want a purpose. So progressivism says, look what’s going on right now, don’t worry about they’re backwards. We’re going somewhere. That’s progressivism in a nutshell, but progressivism because of Hegel. The progressivism says you need the government to really get everybody to go. So progressivism inherently is a world view that says we’ve got brilliant ideas, we’re the smart ones, and we’re going to the future. But to get there, the government’s got to help everybody get there. So Progressivism creates a government that controls people to get them in a particular direction. Marxism is merely the most clearly demonstrable at this time. And there’s many Marxists then those I know the Marxist i don’t speak Russian, I don’t have an accent, no, But they believe the principles that the state, the government, it has to fix everything and improve the whole world. In fact, save the planet if need be if the planet needs saving, well you need a government to do that. And so Progressivism by its very nature dismisses that which is passed as holding us back. We have to go on to this brave new world. Every progressive form of government will dismiss your old fashioned values of regarding individual life as important. No those are each individual life is only important to the degree that’s moving the revolution forward. It’s only the enlightened woke people that are important. If you’re not woke Jacob, you’re holding back all of society and progress jacob you backwards person we might have to get you to re education camp if you’re unwilling to go there which is what communists do talk to people from Vietnam. If you don’t want to go to the education camp I’m sorry after that we can’t keep feeding you we’ll just resolve the problem. So progressive governments by their very nature dismiss the inherent value of human life so if you ask, well, when was the every government that wants to control people will ultimately throw out the hypocritical. So in 1933 the Nazi, the National Socialist government gave instructions that doctors were to kill, but only out of compassion. It was out of compassion it was out of feelings. And they sold it to the public. Well, here are all these here we have these useless idiots they’re using up resources. They’re needless eaters, was the phrase. But they’re eating our resources and we’re going through the Depression and we’re trying to take care of this whole country. Let’s be compassionate who would ever want to live like that? Who would ever want to live if you’re mentally incapacitated? They also had, after World War One more than any other country. They had introduced mustard gas, but then they also got they were repaid in kind. Mustard gas was a terrible tool of mass killing and destruction. It often wouldn’t completely kill someone, but it would scar them for their lives. They would live the rest of their life dependent in nursing homes. So there were facilities in Germany in 1933 full of World War One vets, and they said, well, we need to be compassionate that who’d want to live like that? Come on, Jake, why would you want to live like that? And where’s your emotion come on. The government understands and compassionate, and so we’re going to allow doctors to kill they instituted what was known as the Teargaten fear T4 Teargaten Fear was a Nazi program of compassion, to kill certain people but to use medicine to kill. To use medicine to kill and that.

Jacob Barr :

So how is that different than the IT seems like they’re using the same line that, you know, essentially that who would ever want to live like that so if someone’s born into poverty or someone’s going to be born into a hard situation like we’re having Down syndrome, who would ever want to live like that? That same line is being used to support abortion decisions as probably one of the most prevalent false beliefs. And I didn’t realize that it had huge correlation with Germany and the Nazi regime for promoting. Yeah, for mixing the language up, saying compassionate killing by, you know, using words in a way that is just manipulative and, you know, supported on essentially false beliefs.

Brian Johnston :

That’s right. But they don’t want to get your feelings. But it is that’s their starting point. As long as you go along with their laws, their goal is to change the fundamental nature of American law, a fundamental transformation as some people have put it. So the goal of progressivism is to alter the predicate america is built on the hope and aspiration of mankind, and that is we hold these truths to be self-evident that all individuals are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain rights, not endowed by their government. America is built on idea that every human life is significant beyond measure and they should be free and protected from any someone who wants to kill them for no reason. The laws that’s why we have policemen so our government has policemen, as every government has had, but for a very specific purpose, to order society, but primarily to protect the lives of the innocent. So a policeman just doesn’t go around arresting everybody. The purpose of the law is to define no, you need to arrest miscreants, you need to restrain those who are not innocent. And we empower policemen with the law which is designed to protect each individual life. That’s America in progressive countries, eh? Forget it. The goal of the government is to bring you to the future. Come on. And if I can manipulate your emotions to come along with us and your feelings, if I can get you to nod, go along, yeah who’d ever want to live like that? That would be a better world let’s go let’s go. Let’s be compassionate the people in nursing homes right now, That’s happening right now in California i’ve been to those nursing homes it’s happening in Canada and it’s finally making the papers. But everybody talks about let’s get a Canadian health system. No, sorry. If your Healthcare is given by the government, the government is free to determine if you should get it. And so right now the issue of euthanasia and it’s supposedly voluntary. It’s voluntary come on, if they’re remote, if they’re depressed right now, let’s take advantage of that. So it’s voluntary, but in point of fact, what’s happened in the law if we don’t know if you get knocked out Jacob, your comatose, maybe briefly if you aren’t able to speak Well, we have to make decisions for you and we need to have substituted judgment. You know if I was Jacob, I wouldn’t want to be in this condition. I’m compassionate i know about you all you other people, I’m compassionate who would want to live like that? Who would want to just be there like a vegetable? Now, I have many stories, and you can they’re not hard to find. Of patients who were comatose but heard every word in the room as they were being talked about. And when they finally came out, they said you wanted to kill me. Oh, what were you what are you talking about? No you thought I couldn’t understand you, but I was hearing you. Every honest not neurologist will tell you they don’t fully understand what a coma is very mysterious thing and a lot of language. And again, the one, the language I hate because it’s extremely judgmental it’s designed to confuse you vegetable well, that person is a vegetable. They’re in a vegetative state. Oh really? Looks like a human being to me. No, it’s a vegetable. I used to be a child, and I remember there’s animal, mineral and vegetable. It’s at least an animal, isn’t it? The human being. That’s a human being don’t call him a vegetable. But you’re precisely right. They must begin by assaulting the language they must get you to accept their use of language. And even if you’re uncomfortable with it, if you accept their predicate, they’ve won. Now they can just debate you as a moralist.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah.

Brian Johnston :

You’re just a moralist, and you’re holding us back. You Christians are holding us back you moralists are holding us. We’re progressing to this brave new world. Now, real quickly, since we’re on this and we’re having lunch together. The problem with progressives is in their own mind, Progressives have different visions of that brave new world. So for some it’s about saving the planet. We don’t understand we’ve got to save the planet. And a lot of people will nod with that. But then as if someone’s a real scientist, they go, what is that? I don’t think the plan is as much dangerous as you’re saying you said seven years ago we were supposed to be all dead. You said, what do you mean that’s not real science? So, but then someone else, for example, some advocates of euthanasia and abortion said, look, a pig. A pig is as valuable as a human baby. A pig is more intelligent than a human baby. So if you’re progressive, you’ve got to assert animal rights. That’s what our brave new world is about. We have to grant personhood to animals and if you don’t, do you, we shouldn’t be killing dolphins. We shouldn’t be killing pigs at slaughterhouses you’re evil for doing that. So they have, this is, this is to our benefit and their harm. But progressives have all sorts of confusing idea about that brave new world in the future and they’re going in different directions and they’re actually working against themselves because it’s really about appealing to selfishness. What do you want in the future, Jacob? Yeah, that’s right i agree with you. Let’s get the government to let’s throw out this government and we’ll get the government to do what you want. So a lot of progressive governments, they will engender. A lot of progressive governments will engender discontent on anything, on anything. And then they’ll say, well, the government needs to fix this. We need to throw out these existing and old fashioned ideas. Come on, join us. Well, how many genders do you think there are? How many opinions have. Well, I think there’s 34 genders yeah hey, you know what? And why is the government record come on, let’s have the government fix this and we’ll make people change. Progressive governments will manipulate and throw out kooky ideas and find people who are willing to agree and manipulate those emotions so that they will destroy the existing government. That’s directly from Hegel’s philosophy of history and Hegel’s philosophy of the Spirit. Phenomenology of Spirit will spend time on that another time, but that is progressivism and anybody who’s alive right now looking at what’s happening to our government. Progressive governments seek to destroy any traditional values, and protecting innocent lives is at the very core of Western civilization’s values. They’re protecting innocent lives. And in Western civilization, it was the Doctor Who of all of society was committed into. They committed their whole life, all of their education to understand how a human body works, how a human being works. And then they swore. I’m going to use my knowledge only for the benefit and protection of that human. My patient is more important than me. That’s the Hippocratic Oath, critically important. That was thrown out in Roe V Wade for the United States. In Germany it was thrown out by the T4 program. And in Marxist countries, they just have different names what they do, they usually send people eventually to jail and then often to the jail Infirmary. If that person doesn’t recant, you can go to jail and communist countries and if you, if you go to the warden and say, you know, warden, you have me here for my thoughts, The thought police arrested me. I’ve decided I’ve changed my mind. I want to serve the government i believe that you’re bringing us to a brave new world. That literally, is what happens in 1984 if you read the book, Winston, the star of 1984 ultimately says, You know what? Big Brother does love me. He had finally surrendered to that. So Big Brother loves you. The government knows best. Obey the government. Usually in progressive Marxist government systems, they’ll try to control your thoughts voluntarily if you volunteer to go along, it’ll give you the reasoning. If you go on, great, we’ll give you Paola, we’ll give you SOMA, we’ll let you smoke dope, anything you want to make you happy as long as you support us, the government. But if you disagree with us, we’re going to have to talk to you. We certainly can’t have your vote counting. That can’t happen. You’re going to disrupt things but ultimately in government centric societies we’re going to have to we’re kind. We’ll just put you in re education camp we want to help you think if you still resist we’re going to have to restrain you and it’s for your own good you’re a harm to yourself or others we’re going to restrain you and we’re going to put you in prison so you can go through history anyone who’s read about the persecutions of Christians under communist rule, under Nazi rule, if you understand these things, if you understand what Bonhoeffer was saying. Excellent book on Bonhoeffer I recommended. People haven’t read the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He understood what was going on. The worm brands, I strongly recommend, if you’re not familiar with, tortured for Christ and Richard Wormbrand and his wife, who were who were initially imprisoned by the Nazis when they took over Romania. He happened to be a Jewish convert, but he converted to Lutheranism. So he was a minister. He wore a collar, but he was of Jewish extraction. So the Nazis put him in prison. Then the Nazis lost and the Communists came and said, hey, we’re here the Communists have freed you from Nazis. And they said, no, mister why are you in prison here, mister barbrand? Well, I’m preaching the gospel what Can you believe it? So the communist in prison, Richard Wernbrey, he spent his life in com in Nazi and communist prisons. Because he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t obeys the government. He had these ideas that there’s higher law. By the way, that concept of higher law is the predicate of America’s freedoms, that there are higher laws it’s there are self-evident higher laws revealed in nature by the God of nature. The laws of nature nature’s God, declare there’s a higher law. And if the government refuses to obey that higher law, this is an unjust government. That’s an American premise, but it’s in the heart of mankind. And that’s why America has stood as the land of hope for all humanity. Because it’s asserted, we believe there’s a higher law and it’s higher than the government. That’s America’s great gift to the world.

Jacob Barr :

What how do you, when you look at America and going to the pro-life side of America, how would you what are your thoughts on the different groups within the pro-life world like, there’s the pregnancy clinic groups. There’s the, you know, there’s a sidewalk counseling there’s church groups. And then there’s also some groups that are calling for abortion to be abolished. And there are, you know, and there’s And when it comes to like legalities, some groups are looking for, you know, to try and make abortion less available, while some groups are saying, you know, all or nothing. What are your thoughts on these different groups and how they interact or in. Yeah, when it comes to the just that, Yeah, how that might play and here in America, like we just have a lot of different.

Brian Johnston :

Agendas. That’s why i think it’s a great question i’m going to address that real quick i’m going to move my venue because it’s telling me the battery is low.

Jacob Barr :

Oh yeah, let’s get some power.

Brian Johnston :

On the phone so you’re going to brief tour of my house here. I’m going to kitchen area. We’re walking down to the kitchen area. When you’re left, you will see the kitchen area i’m going to go here and I’m going to plug in so that we don’t drop off entirely. So you’re getting to a very salient point and 1st off every pro-life individual and whatever you’re you see something first so I want to say that you see there’s something wrong and you want to address it and so.

Jacob Barr :

I feel like we’re not, there’s more. I feel like there’s a need for unity, but at the same time we also have different priorities.

Brian Johnston :

Well, no, that’s I agree. And so the question is as in this post op situation, so I got to just got to be able to see me here, no worries. And again, since we’re having lunch together on me, I want you comfortable.

Jacob Barr :

Do it.

Brian Johnston :

Perfect yeah but it’s not staying. I had it set up over there. We’ll get there. I just this is not a regular position for me, but it is near the power block. So come on, see, it just went let me do one other thing.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, if you get a book or something that might prop be a good prop. And I and I could edit this part out if we want to it’s the big deal.

Brian Johnston :

Oh, it’s the most exciting part though action.

Jacob Barr :

That’s true, yeah.

Brian Johnston :

We’re making it an action movie. That’s important. People live real quickly because I want to be charitable. I’ve been involved in every aspect of the pro-life movement, and as a family we personally have given. We’re tallying up, I think, easily over ten thousand dollars and for my household, that’s a lot of money. But thousands it’s tens of thousands, actually if I go back, ’cause I was, I’ve been doing this since 1978 and then we were married in 1979 i started out in front of abortion clinics, praying in front of abortion we used to do signs, but really praying without signs. And with a young lady, a Christian young woman, we would pray. And then when someone came, she would go talk to the young lady and I would talk to whoever was bringing her. And very important you need to know, of course, and this is something that most pro lifers do know. Emotions are a big issue in all of this. And you and I just talked about that’s how they sell abortion on emotional arguments. Who would ever want to have a baby in yadda yadda situation? Think ahead. Come on, you’re not going to be able to raise this baby, yadda. Sometimes parents would say that. So sometimes I would end up talking to a parent and they did not want to talk to me. They were here to take care of their daughter how dare I intervene? But they’re thinking of what’s best for her she’s not going to she’s going to miss going to college she’s going to do this. She can’t have this. Well, what about adoption? No that you know how hard it is to give up your baby, and this isn’t giving up your baby killing it. But no logic goes out the window it’s all about emotions. But I want to cut you brought up several important points and again, crisis pregnancy center is very important. But now it was Roe V Wade what caused all this everybody needs to understand that as a culture, we were not Nazi Germany. As a culture, we were not killing our babies. And if they were, there were laws in that particular state that required very close examinations. Now, some of those laws they were defying, but nevertheless, the law is there to guide and protect. That’s the purpose of the law under Dobbs. Now we can start doing that with the law, but only if you get involved. And if you’re a citizen, it is the citizens who will tell the lawmakers, look, you need to pass this bill. And the lawmaker will say, well, that’s nice, but you didn’t give me a donation, and I’m only slightly stretching it. But they got to that building and into that seat as a legislator because somebody sponsored that. They said, hey, Bill, I like how you think. You think like us. I’m going to give you some money to win. Or groups like pro-life groups or pro abortion groups, they say, we’re going to have all of our people vote for you. We want you to win. And so that person now holds office. But you need to understand that it’s civics and politics. They’re going to listen to the people that hired them, and a lot of people end up when they finally realize it’s about the law. A lot of people say I’m gonna go lobby, and then they come and realize that person doesn’t want to hear me at all. Welcome to America. Welcome to civics it’s reality. You know how to get them to hear you elect somebody who agrees with you and is willing to fight for you believe it, if you don’t do that, you’re not addressing the issues we now have, Dodd says you can do that. But if instead you be like i started in front of clinics, What I did was not immoral. I’m not saying that people who do that are immoral. I started doing it though in 1978 and then in the eighties there were people said, look that’s not enough, we got to go break the law and then Operation Rescue came up, if you are you familiar with that?

Jacob Barr :

Yes, and I think they’re probably one of the, well, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe they’re one of the abolitionist.

Brian Johnston :

Groups right now I we don’t have a lot of time, but I’d love to talk about abolition and Abraham Lincoln, but we’ll have to go abolition.

Jacob Barr :

There’ll be a future podcast.

Brian Johnston :

Yeah, abolitionists did not understand the law. Abraham Lincoln, I believe, was one of the finest lawyers America ever knew because he didn’t understand the details. I know lots of lawyers, and they know the factoid details they passed the bar, they passed the test. But they don’t understand the principle of the law. That’s a spiritual insight abraham Lincoln understood the law and he understood America’s laws he understood the Union and the Constitution, and he knew you just can’t force an end to slavery. He literally did. He fought against the Civil War, he literally, and it had already started. But he said no, it’s ballots, not bullets that are used to change the law. And if you decide, no, I don’t care, I’m going to defy the law i’m going to break the law, to change the law. That’s what abolitionists were doing. John Brown the most notorious. But we digress i realized when that came up in about 1981 or two, and these were well meaning people these are Christian people. Some of them went to prison for a long time. Very noble. But I did not want policemen coming to abortion clinics to arrest my friends. I want a policeman coming to abortion clinics to arrest abortionists. Think it through. There’s only one way for that to happen. There’s only one way. You must be involved in changing the laws. And if the current people won’t change the laws, you must elect new people to replace them. You’re an American what’s the matter with you? Get involved.

Jacob Barr :

This is the first, this is the first era we’ve had in the post OPS world for pro-life state level politicians to be elected with that new layer of post OPS power that affects the state levels everything from senator down to school board and those positions have a new, yeah, have a new layer of responsibility when it comes to life.

Brian Johnston :

You are. You are preaching my message, man i love it because that’s where we can change things as I said personally, and I like the Texas version of the law because it reinforces that an individual has responsibility. So I can go and sue you, kill my granddaughter. I’m going to sue you. I’m going to just, I’m taking you to court and the and the prosecutors aren’t going to prosecute you. Too bad. I am. And I’m going to hire the best attorney. That’s America. That’s what the law is for. So the Texas version that allows private action. I love those laws. Back to what you were just saying, crisis pregnancy centers again, I’m a big fan of crisis pregnancy centers. But we need to realize that it’s not the right to life. We need to make distinctions. Crisis pregnancy centers it’s good those women need help. It’ll really fulfill a literally, I’m going to hang on just a SEC yeah.

Jacob Barr :

No worries.

Brian Johnston :

See if we get a little more light there i think I was going into the shadows and now it’s.

Jacob Barr :

Really good.

Brian Johnston :

Ok, so those young women and babies are in physical need. I was naked and you clothed me i was hungry and fed me. I was thirsty and gave me drink. That is what’s known as the work of corporal mercy, and we should help them. But it doesn’t change the law. And if you don’t change the law, those same women down the road that are in physical need, the culture and the government in particular, is saying, look, you don’t want to have to raise that baby. Look, we want to manipulate your emotions. Look, we want to tell we have an answer, we’ll kill your baby. If you don’t address that, you’re not addressing the evil our nation has adopted. You have to change the law so yes, do help those in need do. It’s a work of corporal mercy, but the scriptures define and historically orthodox Christianity has explained there are two types of mercy, corporal mercy and spiritual mercy. Most of what Jesus did and the Church was works a spiritual mercy, which is to guide people’s understanding to what’s true so that they would make wise decisions that would benefit them and others. Teaching what is true is the best form of spiritual mercy. That’s how you show mercy to someone. Sometimes people think, well let’s give them money. Oh, that person’s in need. Well give them money. I’ve done my good deed for the day. You may not have done your good deed for the day. Doing physical things doesn’t suffice because the challenge is much more real and greater. If I give somebody, oh, look, i need to feed today, you know, food. Give me some food, well, you might feed them and then they’ll go on pursuing the very problem that has immersed themselves in they don’t have food because they’ve not been responsible. And it might be wiser to say, look, and this is what a lot of good rescue missions do it’s great. A lot of good Christian organizations, a lot of good churches. Hey, you want to change your life? Great come and follow Jesus. And then the next thing they do is, hey, you need to work. You need to learn how to work what? I thought you’re just going to feed me and give me religious talk. Yeah, I want to teach you. So I’m going to give you this work of spiritual mercy i’m going to teach you something. But you have to do it if you want to change. And that’s what good teaching is. It’s an act of spiritual mercy so you and I are actually engaging in an act of mercy now by exploring the principles and helping others understand there are deeper principles that must be pursued. If you want to protect babies, you better make sure you talk to your assembly member. Or if it’s if there’s a school based clinic coming, you go talk to your elected school board representative. If you want to protect those kids from a school based clinic, you better get involved and put leather to your words. Walk down, be involved, get real and explain that’s why it says in the scripture a servant of God must be apartment to explain what they believe, to breakdown the word of truth, to be able to get people to come to conclusion so that they’re no longer taken captive in the futility of their mind by which the devil has got them to do evil things. Now that’s in Timothy. But that’s what good Christians should do in every way, shape and form if you’re a mature Christian. We need to stop being immature Christians who are ourselves following our emotions and thinking that we’re doing good because we fulfilled our emotions. We need to understand no, it’s not about feelings can come and go. There’s principles and spiritual principles that are going to change your life and change your society. You need to learn them and then do them. And that’s how we’re going to protect lives. We need to be I congratulate, I support crisis pregnancy centers. I congratulate I was in front of clinics with science. I was counseling women. If you don’t change the laws that you’re not being an effective Christian, you’re not being a true pro lifer. And you need to learn and this is how you learn true confession. Do you know how much work I had to go on my own soul? I did not want to learn Robert’s Rules of Order.

Jacob Barr :

Ok do.

Brian Johnston :

You know why?

Jacob Barr :

Because they’re not. Well, unless you’re needing to use them, they would probably be. I haven’t learned them, so i’m My reason for not learning them is because I don’t want to, I suppose. There you go.

Brian Johnston :

And that’s very human reaction because we as human beings, when we get ideas, we don’t want to have to. We want to be able to express them. And in Robert’s Rules, you have to be able to control a group of people that want to do things. And if you don’t learn how to properly do that, you’re never going to be able to impact the law making process, the deliberative process, because these are deliberative bodies, Dobbs said look, the authority to kill is not the abortionist, it is the authority of the state, and that is determined by a deliberative body called the legislature, which is elected by every citizen in the state. If you don’t realize they must deliberate and argue, they must follow rules for those deliberations to happen. So that just a little personal vignette it took a lot of sacrifice for me to give up my desire because I can talk for me to give up my desire to. I’m just going to blurt out what I think, what I feel, what I believe. That’s easy. That is easy.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, but the fit it within the Robert’s Rule of a system is yeah, that’s a different way of trying to express thoughts with, you know, 3 minute windows or smaller amounts of time.

Brian Johnston :

It’s huge, brother and yet let’s realize if you’re a Christian, our God is not a God of confusion. God wants human beings to deliberate God throughout scriptures he’s He deliberates a lot. He says hey come and reason with me. I want you to reason with God invites you personally, whoever you are. The scriptures say Come and reason with me. Present your case. I want to prove you innocent. It’s a fascinating passage and I bet you and so oh. What my battery again? You still there i’m.

Jacob Barr :

Still here?

Brian Johnston :

Ok, my battery is saying hey, you didn’t plug me in oK, it’s plugged in. I’m hoping it’s juicing up it says I have 10. I’m down to 10 % let me excuse me for a second. And I don’t see where my battery thing is registering come on. Yeah, it’s charging, OK.

Jacob Barr :

Oh, good. Fully connected. That’s good.

Brian Johnston :

Using reason is not evil. A lot of Christians think, oh, all those progressives, you know, they’re intellectuals and they’re used. Their God is reason. No, they themselves have come to the wrong conclusions and are using the wrong reasoning God has given us. We’re made in the image and likeness of God, and that’s a spiritual statement. God uses reason. He wants you to use your reason and not just your emotions. That’s a huge challenge for a lot of Christians a lot of Christians just think, well, I feel this, and so they confuse their soul with the Holy Spirit. I feel this i feel that no the scripture says you got to make a division between soul and spirit. And the word of God does that makes a division between soul and spirit joints and marrow, discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart. So quit being ruled by your emotions and blaming it on the Holy Spirit. Well, I feel this so the Holy Spirit wants me to hang on, slow down, use reason in a godly way. Think it through. Think about it again in the scriptures. Be still and know that I am God. That’s a command from scripture to us. We need to think things through. We are now in a time in our nation where if you will deliberate and be involved in the freedoms you have as an American citizen, you can protect babies in your state if you will apply yourself to that. If you unfortunately were like I was, I don’t want to apply myself to that. That’s too much restraint on me i just want to feel I became a Christian and we love our feelings. That was the wrong attitude, so very important that we understand that. Again, I want to affirm every pro-life individual. But even as Lincoln did, Lincoln wanted to affirm the abolitionists. He was just saying, look, there is a path we must take and many people get upset when they realize again, our we’re not taught proper American history. But Lincoln, again, he did not liberate all the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn’t the end of it wasn’t even the beginning of the end. That was a very precise use of the law. That startled it, startled the Confederacy, and it startled the Union because Lincoln understood the principles of the law and what Emancipation Proclamation did what? Its approach to slavery. And again, figuratively speaking, it’s the same battle. Is this a human being that you own? Is this a human being you can kill you and I.

Jacob Barr :

Say, yeah is it a human being? That’s one of the arguments too.

Brian Johnston :

Yeah, in slavery that was the. And so the abolitionists had it right in their sentiment. But Lincoln said, look, let’s use the law. And so people were confounded by the brilliant move. And basically the only thing really that the Emancipation Proclamation did is it said you’re at war with United States under the War Powers Act i, as president of the United States, have been given the authority to seize your assets. I have that authority as the president, I am now seizing your assets, what you call slaves. I now seize them, and I declare them free. Very brilliant move it didn’t end slavery. In fact there were four states that were pro slavery, states that did not secede, 4 states that had slaves and he didn’t seize those he didn’t free those slaves. He only freed the slaves in the warring states. He was using the law to bring about a conclusion that he desired. You as an American, must understand that you now personally have been given personal authority in your state to lobby to influence to make sure that your state laws will be just. I personally recommend the Texas version that has, yes, criminal penalties for abortion but allows individuals to bring civil action. That’s my personal analysis i think it’s brilliant. I think it goes to the heart of America’s freedoms and the American responsibilities of individuals operating under the law. That’s what I’d recommend in the post row environment but now every state gets that shot. If you’re a pro-life or and you’re a Christian, you got to be involved in this civic process. There’s many other aspects of caring for people. I agree there’s many other aspects, but if you want to stop the killing in your state, this is how you’re going to have to do it.

Jacob Barr :

Wow. Well, that might be a good place for us to start the music and put a that might that might be a good spot to end.

Brian Johnston :

And oh, I thought that we’re going to start the program. I thought this was all background.

Jacob Barr :

No.

Brian Johnston :

I’m teasing you.

Jacob Barr :

No that’s good. But I’m thinking we might want to do another podcast about separation of church and state and how that applies to local laws, because for so long we haven’t. I feel like a lot of like the public schools is like a Nineveh where a lot of us have gone the other way. And I feel like God is calling us into some pretty dangerous territory. And separation of church and state is one of those pieces that is, it’s hard to navigate with how to like bring in my principles that I’ve held on to so tightly in church and in my Christian School. And now I’m trying to enter into this public space and I feel like that’s, yeah, something worth exploring is how to, how to navigate. Yeah and because we’re essentially saying, you know how can I bring my belief system into support my local community, my local state?

Brian Johnston :

Yeah, and I think you know what you’re right. It is another program i’m a big I used to teach at a Christian School. I’m a big fan of Christian School and homeschooling in particular. I believe even if you send your child to a Christian School, you still need the homeschool and be involved. Be involved with them. So if you’re sending them to a public school, be involved with them. You’re the principal instructor. We homeschooled. I strongly recommend homeschooling, but you still need to be actively involved. And again, that let that be a predicate. You’re part of this government as a citizen. Yeah, there is no separation. You are.

Jacob Barr :

And I think even though you know, if even if your kids homes, if you’re homeschooling or you have them in Christian School, I still think going to Nineveh might be the calling that we all need to partake in.

Brian Johnston :

Well, yeah, but we’re even more. That’s right i agree and.

Jacob Barr :

As an adult, maybe not. Maybe not send our kids there. But we should be sending our, you know, we should be. Maybe we need to go there in order to run for the school board or to run for state representative, You know, run as a state representative who’s going to have, you know, because we’re essentially, yeah, we might have, you know, faith in Jesus, but and we’re competing with belief systems of, you know, faith in government or faith in secular ideas. It’s not like someone else is a, quote, atheist. They’re simply putting their faith in a different area.

Brian Johnston :

Right and I like how you see that actually Nineveh is i don’t think Jonah was the best prophet. As an example, the guy had a bad attitude. It’s super.

Jacob Barr :

Real i mean, he’s just like one of us like either one of us could have been a Jonah.

Brian Johnston :

Yeah, but I’d rather be a Daniel, so Oh yeah.

Jacob Barr :

Definitely i’m just saying Jonah’s got a low bar.

Brian Johnston :

I mean, he’s gonna.

Jacob Barr :

Leave for God. Yeah, all right god, you got to smite them.

Brian Johnston :

That’s right i’ve had it with these people i don’t like them. Hey, if you are trying to be, and I I’m a big fan of Wickliffe and. But if you’re trying to evangelize, if you’re going around the world spreading the gospel, it’s not a good idea to have a bad attitude about the people you’re going to. It’d be nice if you could demonstrate you actually love them that ‘d be cool. And that’s what Wickliffe does learn their language. How did these people really talk? That’s going to be useful.

Jacob Barr :

In those days.

Brian Johnston :

The synthetic languages, they probably they were mutually intelligible and Nineveh. That language was understandable to Jonah and he to them, but he was not demonstrating look, I’m here i’m committed to you that’s why I’m saying these things that’s why I’m being the prophet. I don’t hate you. But Jonah needed to shake that attitude. God wanted prophecy to come because God loved the people of Minima. Jonah didn’t. Jonah had a bad attitude. But hey, I’m going to meet him later. We’ll have a great talk about it. I understand his feelings i’m i understand feelings. But we need to be guided by more than feelings that’s a big premise in the scripture. People don’t always recognize it, but that if you don’t speak to your soul about your bad feelings, if you don’t turn your feelings around back to God, then you ain’t doing it right. Christians are not supposed to be following their feelings and yet many do and say, well, that’s what God’s telling me, you better get to know him better, read deeper, become more spiritually mature. That is the call on Christian is to spiritual maturity. It isn’t just to get saved. A lot of people leave it there. There’s churches. I’ve been there you’ve been there. They’ve been there for 20 years and the message at the very end is, I see that hand. You got to get saved. Slip your hand up. That’s the beginning.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, that’s the beginning.

Brian Johnston :

And it is continual. And there’s people, that’s where they live. Christians are not meant to be baby Christians.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, it’s the better question. Yeah how has God interacted with you this week? More so than at the beginning of your Yeah, when you were spiritually born again and then when it comes to, like, you know, when you hear a thought or an idea, you know, check it with the Bible i mean, does it agree or does it disagree? And the Bible says that if you hear a spirit, you know, you can ask that voice is Jesus, God come in the flesh? And if the Spirit says Jesus is Lord, then that’s the Spirit of God or if it doesn’t say that, then you just identified a false spirit and you need to yes, the Antichrist and you need to go away from it. But you know that’s the check so if you have an idea in your head you can check it you know is Jesus come is Jesus God come in the flesh and Lord or not. And that’s how you can you know you know organize good from bad and keep the good and trash the bad and but that’s like an ongoing and then you know and the Bible’s the only you know that’s the authoritative ways that can you know always be used to write the you know to write your direction and you don’t have to worry about checking it because it’s been it’s been set but anyways yeah so emotions come in but you can check them they can be checked and the Bible has directions on how to check those thoughts so.

Brian Johnston :

That’s right, Yeah, Well, let’s it’s a logical.

Jacob Barr :

Way but we should talk some more down the road and I think separation of church and state is something along with local politics. I feel like that.