Listen to Jor-El Godsey and Jacob Barr talk about the draft opinion leaked on May 2nd and how all of this impacts pregnancy clinic leadership teams.
Summary:
This is Jacob Barr, and I had a profound discussion with Jor-El Godsey on the “Pro-Life Team Podcast.” We delved into the leaked draft of the Dobbs case opinion by Justice Alito, exploring its implications for pregnancy clinic directors, pregnancy help organizations, and their teams. Our conversation touched upon the role of God’s word in shaping our response to the ongoing changes in our nation. Jor-El highlighted the importance of staying focused on the fact that the draft is not final and the need for a measured response. He emphasized the ongoing work of pregnancy health organizations, regardless of legal changes. Our talk also ventured into the potential political motivations behind the leak and its implications for the Supreme Court’s decision-making process.
Reflecting on this, I discussed the importance of surrounding the Supreme Court justices and their families with prayers, especially considering the pressure they face. Jor-El agreed, pointing out the leak’s potential to influence the final ruling. We also considered the societal implications of the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade, discussing how it could lead to significant changes in state laws and the overall landscape of abortion rights in the United States.
Throughout our conversation, we reaffirmed our commitment to supporting women facing unplanned pregnancies and the vital role of pregnancy help organizations. We touched on the broader societal and political dimensions of the abortion debate, including discussions about state laws and public opinion. As the podcast concluded, we emphasized the power of prayer and the need for a faith-driven approach to the challenges ahead.
#Hashtags related to our podcast discussion:
#ProLifeTeamPodcast, #JacobBarr, #JorElGodsey, #DobbsCaseOpinion, #JusticeAlito, #SupremeCourt, #PregnancyClinics, #ProLife, #GodsWord, #NationalResponse, #LegalImplications, #AbortionDebate, #FaithInAction, #PrayerForJustices, #RoeVWade, #StateLaws, #AbortionRights, #UnplannedPregnancy, #PregnancyHelpOrganizations.
Transcript:
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Jacob Barr :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m Jacob Barr. Today I’m talking with Drill Godsey, and we’re talking about the draft of the Dobbs case opinion by Justice Alito and the majority in the Supreme Court and how that draft effects pregnancy clinic directors, pregnancy help organizations and your teams. And how God’s word is speaking to how we might want to posture ourselves from response to what’s going on in our nation. Jarrell, I am really glad that you’re here i’m going to go ahead and introduce you because I know who you are well, amazing and I’m not biased but I do think that you are astounding when it comes to helping Prency clinics and pretty much like the all the different areas like if you were a football player you would have like maybe not Bo Jackson stats but very like Jerry Rice kind of stats like he would just be like very, you know, very even across the board, you know these different speed and agility and exactly what a previously clinic needs to win the Super Bowl which I think right here we might be, you know we’re talking about a draft, a draft of the Roe versus Wade being overturned, which is, which is a big occasion. But before we celebrate, as you wrote in your E letter at some point this morning. Yeah so go ahead and jump in so where are we today when it comes to everything going on in this May 3rd is that what today is?
Jor-El Godsey :
It’s still May 3rd, yeah it’s been a long day. It’s been an interesting day and it’s very interesting to note and I think the, I think Jacob, that the most precise headline is to is this the Supreme Court has voted to overturn Roe. So that’s true we know that from the leak, we know that from the information, but that’s all they’ve done, right so we have a draft that was has been confirmed that’s written by Alito, it’s a draft from February it’s not final. So this is not yet the time to celebrate. We are excited for what it can mean but this is not the final language that we know we know of almost certainly not the final language it might be the bulk of it but it’s certainly something that we can recognize like well what we have been praying for seems to be the path that we’re going down what we didn’t imagine was that the information will be leaked in advance and what that would cause and the but the potential challenges that could create. But where we sit today you know what? Well, you do realize that what today is relative to the pregnancy health movement right It’s Tuesday and it that’s all it is it’s another day because our work didn’t change you know someone said earlier like you know nothing changed in the law today or yesterday. Babies are still being aborted. Moms are still waking up wondering what am I going to do and despite all the rancor and the crazy signs of the people outside the Supreme Court, she can still go find an abortion and she needs instead to find us right, to find where we are there to help her in that decision. And so the truth is, I think that even if this were the decision and this was official today, that would also be somewhat true of pregnancy help everywhere now there would be a difference. You know, some states would become immediately life states we know other states would retain their kind of abortion state status. The nature around where we what we do would likely change depending upon what state we’re in. But the nature of what we do is still the same, still us reaching out with the heart for those that are finding themselves in the valley of decision and needing help like we have to offer her.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I do feel like we have well so this document being leaked represents that someone in the Supreme Court leaked the document. It represents a failure and security for it to be shared before it was published before it was the living yeah, the document that we’re all going to use to work from, but rather this one is leaked. You know, while it’s a draft, which. What are your thoughts on that scenario when it comes to the timing of this document being leaked before it was marked as final and while it’s still marked as draft?
Jor-El Godsey :
Well, I think that there’s several things we can draw from that, one of which is the leak is intentional to influence the final product. And that can only be that there was a hope that releasing this information would create an uproar, an outrage. Maybe it’s all political and stirring up the base for, you know, these primaries that are happening or the elections that are coming. But more likely it was intended to create some type of public outcry that would actually maybe even change votes on the court itself to maybe influence Roberts or influence someone else on the court one of the five that voted for this, i believe it was very intentional to attempt to create that atmosphere. And that in and of itself kind of shows the really the power in this case, the negative power of abortion in our country that we would violate what has been one of the most respected and honored traditions of the Supreme Court in that you don’t hear of leaks of this kind at any time in the history. Maybe you hear hints of other leaks about how one justice voted or maybe there’s some of that but releasing a early draft of a ruling that is UN precedented and that only speaks to the motivation of why someone would want to do that and it has to be the attempt to, well, let me be direct to abort the process that was already in place right so this is not in a way it’s very much like abortion itself which seeks to abort the process that God has put in place. This leak was very much an attempt to abort the process of the court that it goes through the machinations that occur as it tries to finalize its ruling, get its footing that it’s going to then have the rest of the country live by. And this attempt to alter that path is very much that same thing it’s an it’s an attempt to abort the process and subvert the really the rest of us to someone’s you know, individual thinking. And they’re really, they’re holding on to abortion and this so-called right that Roe has created.
Jacob Barr :
So I think the positive you know 1 positive reaction or one way to respond to this scenario in a way that is full of hope in some way would be for us to encourage those who are simply to encourage life minded Jesus following people to pray for an army of angels to surround the Supreme Court justices and their families during this time of pressure that’s you know while this pressure is being put up against them from people who use bully tactic from people who use mob like angry burning of buildings and yelling someone down more so than arguing the arguments or the OR you know using logic essentially we pray i would just say that you know praying that this group of justices and their families will be defended completely against this onslaught of pressure from a mob like group who is trying to use mob like tactics as if the Supreme Court is Portland and they’re going to start setting fires as if you know if that’s you know it was it was in 2020 I remember like the left side of the country was the West side of the country was completely like sparkle you know there’s like these fires everywhere some natural some Portland and then and now I feel like DC is you know you know on the verge of some fires and those fires need to be put out right away by and one way to you know for us to do something about this would be to pray to God for him to protect these people who are going to be under this pressure and for. And also I think that the pain and the attacks are you know are represent the cost of freedom and the, you know the freedom that comes with life of unborn in this case Americans who will be impacted directly by Roe versus Wade being overturned these unborn babies that live in America with them having a greater chance that life is worth the cost. And that cost is going to include the, you know, this opposing group, you know, using their tactics that they have demonstrated over the last couple of years, which are ugly, which are terrible, which are disgusting and hard to look at, hard to withstand but I just pray that, you know, our country will have the wherewithal to stand up for life because that these lives are worth the pressure that we’re going to be enduring, possibly in the coming days and weeks and months as this. It’s also interesting that this is year 50, so 1973 January twenty second like this is like the year of Jubilee. We’re on the cusp of 50, the 50 year mark, we’re literally within nine months like I think it’s like 7 months and change that we are currently within the 50 year mark and I don’t know how precise the Bible is on the Year of Jubilee like I don’t know if it’s like 49 ish or 50 on the dot. But we’re literally like I don’t know what significance 49 has in the Bible, but 50 is pretty significant when it comes to like a reset. And so that just seems like that’s it feels prophetic that it would fall on the 50 year mark for a change of this caliber to take place 50 years after it was egregiously, as the draft says, egregiously decided back in 1973.
Jor-El Godsey :
It does i I’ve been saying that i picked that up from some more, much more astute observer than myself but I’ve been trumpeting that same and echoing that same thing that the Year of Jubilee fits here because one of the tenants of the Year of Jubilee was proclaiming release to the captives, right those that were in bondage, particularly in those instances, slaves were set free, debts were forgiven and this is one of the realities of Roe as placed upon our nation and others is debt, it’s burden, it’s captivity either to the ideology, certainly to the experience that’s my own experience, you know having participated with a with an abortion in my past. But God has proclaimed release in my life before this and now I believe he’s proclaiming release to the nation of the United States from this as well and so that is the power of the year of Jubilee i believe in action and I believe that that’s just like God, right, Just like God to do that in a time frame that is of his choosing and not necessarily dependent upon who’s in the White House. Certainly in the person in the White House was even saying I saw today was railing against this as a possible decision and of course that’s to be expected. But Jacob, that there are, you know, there are good things happening in our states as they work diligently to enact laws to protect women from predatory practices of abortion, to protect the Women’s Health, to protect families and of course to protect babies who are at risk from being summarily subjected to the bigger rights of the bigger human involved like that that’s medieval in it in its way and so the states have been moving in that direction. That’s why you see more and more states even since Dobbs came out and was challenged. What was it Florida now has enacted that oklahoma, other states have been joining in on this. And that shows that despite, you know, the maybe the mob that’s gathered out in front of the Supreme Court, the states, the that are moving in this direction and showing that this nation will not tolerate this so-called right to abortion any longer.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I think I was talking with someone earlier today and she was it was Joan Bautista and she was pointing out she feels like this is a Joshua and Caleb moment where we had two that yeah, they we had our 12 people go and look at the promised land. Two people come back and say says the grapes are huge, there’s great milk and honey going on and we can take out the armies that are you know, these tribes in that area. And then there’s ten people who were saying, oh, it’s too big. It’s we’re not going to make it. And so and honestly i feel like I was one of the 10. Like when it comes to being about 20 years ago, I was thinking, all right, i think it would be amazing if Roe versus Wade was overturned. But I don’t think it’s going to happen in my lifetime i don’t think it will happen, but I’m going to push for it. I’m going to work for it. I just don’t expect it i expect my children or grandchildren to experience this. I didn’t think I would get to see it because I thought it was a really big mountain and I had like a normal sized shovel and I was like, oh, I’m not going to make it, but I’ll at least get started and so.
Jor-El Godsey :
Well, we’re started. But remember, it’s not done yet i mean, that’s true. That’s still where we are. You know, we want it to happen. We’ve been praying for it to happen. We’ve been acting i’m with you, Jacob like it’s like, OK if that happens, great but I still, I have this other work to do, which is pregnancy help. And of course, I’ve come to understand this is what I’ve come to understand more deeply even in the last 24 hours, is that, you know, in the Old Testament, one of the things that had to happen for the people of Israel to be blessed was they had to take pull down the asherah, the you know, the places of false worship and of idol worship and of really of the worship of the of the gods that stand against the God of the God of the universe. Those things had to be pulled down in order for redemption and blessing of the nation to occur. And I think that in my mind, this is what’s gone out and this release has indicated that now is the time to pull that down. Whether we can do it as a nation still remains to be seen. The five justices, you know, in this case, Alito has written the right things for that. But can we see it to completion? Will you and I get together in a short amount of time and actually be talking about the language of the ruling and also of the dissents and whatever concurrences there are or whatever we want to talk about that but will that come to pass? And when that does, that will be the those high places being taken down in this case, the high place of abortion as it’s defined by Roe versus Wade and Planned Parenthood versus Casey. And all of the protection of the of the that the unelected officials have been able to establish to protect abortion. Now we need those to come down so that abortion is no longer protected and that good citizens can elect officials to now do something more specific to protect people and not protect abortion.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and it and it. I think i heard Father Frank Pavone briefly today as I was driving watching a YouTube on my Bluetooth. I’m trying to prepare since the reality of life. But yeah, so Father Frank Pavone was saying it wasn’t about the power being returned from the feds to the states or the Fed, you know, the federal government to the state level. He was saying it was about the power being returned from the judiciary, the judges and the court system to the legislature. And i feel like that is something I did not catch on until I heard Father Frank Pavone say, which is amazing because that’s exactly what it is i was thinking Fed to state, you know, I wasn’t seeing it for what it really was which is from courts making law, you know, to legislature making law which is what legislature should do and is built to do and in the courts are built to uphold law, not create law. And so and I felt like that was also yeah, spelled out in a variety of interesting ways in this draft was talking about the yeah, just how the court you know created this ruling that had all these line items and numbering as if it was legislature. It was essentially was almost as if it was drafting laws more so than drafting A ruling which is very telling for what kind of law Roe versus Wade and you know, and then what Casey ended up, you know, what they were when they came to the type of ruling that they were.
Jor-El Godsey :
Well, i actually heard the Solicitor General of the state of Mississippi spoke to this issue. He made the case which i agree like i didn’t fully appreciate it until he put it like this, he said. He said essentially the court with its ambiguous structure of both KC being the viability rule and so-called undue burden it essentially meant that anything that would arise to challenge it had to go to the Supreme Court which it was a de facto establishing the Supreme Court as the abortion board right or the OR the abortion committee like we’re going to determine whether this and that has never been the intention of the court and he went on to say that it was really, it really the court set itself up in that role as somewhat of a super legislature. Right so hey, let’s legislature if you make a rule, we’re going to determine whether that’s OK or not OK, which is which is a general working principle, you know, for the courts relative to the Constitution as that third branch. But in the case of abortion, it was never clear enough to make it a line that then could be followed and always put them in that role of having to be consulted on abortion law and that was all because of Roe. And then reaffirmed in Casey, i thought the draft of Alito really taking apart the original ruling of Roe and then the failure of the of those that that’s that reaffirmed it in Casey to even try to reach to address some of the issues was in itself rather telling and Alito lays all of that out pretty well in this, in this.
Jacob Barr :
Draft I liked how he pointed out that in 1973 Thirty of the states out of 50 at the time were abortion was illegal so essentially with Roe versus Wade being enacted as federal level law, it was trumping 60 % of the States and you know essentially flipping it to that the 40 % where it was legal was now becoming the law of the land and some levels and then it was also interesting in the in the draft that it said 26 of the States and in my mind I was trying to figure out is that a 50 or do we count Puerto Rico and DC what are those? But I think it’s a 50 and so it seems like we still have majority so 26 you said.
Jor-El Godsey :
26 have asked to have it overturned, yeah.
Jacob Barr :
Asked Roe, and Wade overturned. And I think that is, yeah, so the. So the part you know the, yeah the majority still exists you know 30 then 26 right now and I think that you know and that speaks to this going against a majority of the land as federal level.
Jor-El Godsey :
But what you’re going, that’s true but what you’re going to hear is I’ve heard it echoed today i was, I heard Senator Elizabeth Warren saying 67 % or whatever percentage want Roe versus Wade well, if they want Roe versus Wade, if the people want Roe versus Wade, then that then that’s the people’s prerogative. Vote for the politicians, elect people that will do that and then you’ll have no problem she should have no concerns then about whether Roe is overturned or not except the fact that I’m not sure she’s telling the truth because of the fact that what you just pointed out if 26 states want Roe overturned, you know surely that’s not going to be possible then for her to find whatever 67 % of people she’s talking about to uphold a vote for Roe. In fact the truth is it depends on how you ask the question right If you if you ask the question and it most people don’t even know what Roe really means like they don’t mean they don’t know that it that it means that you can you can abort children up until the moment of birth. It they don’t know that it means that you can seek abortion for any reason and again at any time they don’t know that thing and once that’s explained to them in that same poll if they’ve explained what Roe really is all about, then that number plummets and well under half of the people want it to exist at all and most of the rest of them want or most people want it curtailed in some form or fashion. Which is exactly what states can do if indeed this is overturned.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I and I think there’s a lot of bias in the way that some questions are asked when it comes to, you know, you can ask a question in a in a way where you lean someone to the direction you want. As a salesperson, I know how to lean someone into a direction. And when you want someone to answer a certain way, you can essentially make them feel foolish if they were to answer any other way and not that that’s a good tactic to use because it feels like manipulation, but just because a poll says something, it’s sort of it is helpful to know the exact question. And if it was a bias question or if someone truly knows, you know, if we were to ask the question, would you like to have young unborn children burned and, you know, burned and pulled apart, which is a way of describing this abortion procedure? Or would you like to have living children? If we were, you know, whether to have living children who are supported and helped, That would be a way to, you know, rephrase that question but if simply, if we were simply to ask, would you like a decision that was made 50 years ago to not be overturned, Those are completely different results just based on how you’re answering it, based on the gravity of the situation, based on the amount of details you give someone and how you posture those adjectives. Like that has a huge impact on whether or not some, you know, people aren’t going to, people are going to say, yes, I want a healthy child and yes, I would like to not overturn previous decisions. And so just based on those questioning like that’s that, you know in the end, yeah, how you ask the question determines what kind of answer you get and you might have to do this. Yeah, it’s. You got to be a little more, yeah.
Jor-El Godsey :
You have to know that when particularly politicians are spouting that information, they’re doing it because it supports what they want it to support. Yeah so they’re picking and choosing from those surveys and I look, you know, Elizabeth Warren’s not the only one that does it you know everybody does it to some point and so but relying on that as a as an argument is in itself like that puts us into something that we’re not we are not a AA1A1 man one vote, you know, pure democracy otherwise this issue just throw this issue on the ballot every ballot everywhere. We’re all about to vote for. You know the in the midterms well, you know, however many people just put it out there, put it on the, put it on the ballot and say do you want this to be the case or do you not And then we’ll see but the politicians don’t want that they want to make sure that the courts are ruling this so that they can block out others from being a part of this. And really as far as from the pregnancy health perspective, we just want to be to be released from the constraints that Roe places upon pro-life legislators, pro-life officials and pro-life activities so that we can see better results for those that we’re trying to serve like that like that’s why I have to what we have to remember is while all this wrangling is going on, you know in the in the morning, she’s going to wake up and she’s just going to realize suddenly that she’s pregnant and none of this is really going to matter to her what you and I are discussing about some draft that isn’t official yet. She’s going to be looking for a place to go and the question is, will we be there for her will we will we help her find us i know that’s what you guys do it I rapture a great deal you guys are looking for the right ways to make sure that she finds the help that she needs to choose life for her baby and for herself and so that is ultimately what’s the most important thing.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and then, and regardless of the law, you know, unplanned pregnancies, they will exist, you know, down the road, even if abortion, with abortion being illegal in Texas, there are still unplanned pregnancies and women who need care and help and healing and friendship and the listening ear in the heart of Texas where they’re 3 miles from the nearest border. And those women are there and they’re going to be there in 10 years. And so even if even if the law has changed the need for precis clinics is steadfast it’s growing it’s not the laws might change but the yeah, the needs and the women are going to be here because sin is nothing new it doesn’t just change when it becomes illegal. That’s never been the case. But people’s behaviors are probably bent or modified based on what’s legal and not. You know what’s legal and not legal, but.
Jor-El Godsey :
That’s true because the law is a teacher. So what we saw in Texas already was there were women who were found out they were pregnant and, you know, right after or while the heartbeat bill is coming into effect. And many of many of those women fled across the borders to New Mexico, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas to get abortions. But there are also many women they called in the option line they also called into the centers or visited the centers and what they what they did instead of running what they said was Oh my goodness, I’m so glad I don’t have to make that decision now like the law helped them not feel the pressure to do that and I think there’s, you know, certainly there’s women on both sides of that, of that equation. And if this were to be made real when the when the final judgment is released and it and it holds right that this is the case, then that exact thing will happen in states all across this country. There will be women that will be upset and they’ll be looking to find an abortion wherever they can, which of course now you can have them delivered to your door in most cases or if it’s early enough. But there will also be women who will be released the year of Jubilee, released from the captivity that abortion is the answer that they’re being pushed and pressured into. And that’s exactly where we live and so in that short term reality, there will be, I think, an increase we saw that in Texas there’ll be an increase in clients. I think there was a across the board, there’s an estimated 35 % increase in client activity in the wake of the Heartbeat Bill. Now will that stay, you know, forever no, because the law is a teacher. And so the next generation, as it has that law, becomes a reality for them and stays, which is one of the questions about the Heartbeat Bill is that, was that going to stay was it going to go? And we’re still not quite sure yet, but it looks like it’s going to hold based on this ruling, if it comes out that way. But the law will be a teacher and future generations, even the next generation of women who are waking up and finding themselves pregnant, will be adapting to that new law we all do it, right, you know, when I was a kid, which, you know, it was like 100 years ago, I, you know, we didn’t have to wear seatbelts none of that. Well, guess what the law was wear seat belts so we were now we all do it. It’s a routine. The law has been a teacher to us and so we make that adjustment and that will happen. But we need to be ready for the pregnant cell movement for both scenarios, both the increase, the kind of what was it, some of the behaviors that are the kind of the anxiety that a change in the law makes for some of the women. What’s already a stressful situation is only going to be that much more stressful for them when what they thought was a path available to them is no longer there. So that’s all the more reason for that compassionate, caring, kind outreach that we have been forever, right that’s the love approach that’s the caring compassion that’s the whole concept and the reason and the existence of the pregnant cell movement is what it’s all about.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I think I think you’re right on there because this law is giving a new voice to go up against the this. So let me back up a step so the word choice I feel like has been has been turned into synonymous with abortion. Like if someone said if the man says I will support you in whatever you choose, that is very much saying I will support you if you have an abortion like that’s sort of what that’s sort of what is that’s that that’s the message the words used delivers the message of abortion and I feel like so when someone says pro-choice that’s really a way of saying pro abortion and when someone feels like you know what are you going to choose that the way of saying it feels like it’s very heavy-handed pushing on the word abortion, almost as if it if I said I’m going to go get a pair of Nikes, like that’s a way of saying I’m going to get a pair of shoes like those words are very synonymous. And the word choice has been created as almost like a brand for the word abortion. And I think that this law is challenging that word of choice is now being said, well, wait, it’s not legal. I have to travel somewhere to get it well, that doesn’t seem like the only choice because now you know if it’s not legal somewhere, if essentially it’s sort of disrupting, it’s shaking the it’s shaking that word and so now it has, it doesn’t have that clear synonymous feeling it like it did months ago it it’s being challenged and changed i think with these laws, like the heartbeat bill in Texas is a really good example of the word choice not being as heavy-handed pointing towards abortion as it used to be.
Jor-El Godsey :
Let me give you another example to support your that concept what we found is with abortion pill reversal is suddenly with abortion Pill reversal the abortion providers and abortion proponents are not really interested in choice because they want to deny that woman the choice to choose to take the chance to reverse her abortion. And they would condemn her to a an abortion that’s already begun and require her to continue her abortion even though she’s withdrawn her consent.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah.
Jor-El Godsey :
That that’s and that’s that rips my mind, rips the mask off of the so-called choice question because they are not wanting real choice at all because if they truly believe that, then they would truly understand a woman’s ability to have one last chance to choose life and that would be through abortion pill reversal. But no, they fight that they they’re fighting that tooth and nail we’re in a lawsuit about that. We’re involved in things where that’s being called junk science and all the things that they can muster against it they have no science support that claim by the way. In fact, their own science proves abortion pill reversal works but that’s another podcast we’ve, I think we’ve already covered those yeah.
Jacob Barr :
It’s sort of like when Henry Ford said you can have your Model T in any color as long as it’s black.
Jor-El Godsey :
That’s right.
Jacob Barr :
You have all the colors.
Jor-El Godsey :
To pick for example.
Jacob Barr :
As long as it’s black.
Jor-El Godsey :
That’s right. Yeah we’re all about choice as long as it’s abortion and that that’s totally totally correct. And this is the culture though that Roe has created. And so this is another reason why it’s absolutely critical that we get the opportunity to really pull this idol down so that our culture can begin to heal and then can begin to move towards a culture of life. You know the absence of Roe is does not automatically create a culture of life at all. It just, it just allows us now to enter the path that gets us to a culture of life and.
Jacob Barr :
I guess one of the prayers that I well that I was praying earlier today and I hope others pray too would be that the that you know, our enemy is the master of lies and he loves to, you know use words to manipulate. And i just pray that the truth of, you know, what abortion is and what and what these, you know, these evil deeds and these evil postures, you know, what they really are will just be seen for what they truly are. That the truth will be revealed and that there will be awareness of just what it is. And that we will stop being you know, large groups of people will stop being manipulated by this deceptive marketing, the deceptive manipulations, these deceptive messages and that it’ll just be obvious that it’s black, it’s full of death and it’s targeted people that you know, there’s so many things that feel like, you know, it’s the opposite cause like abortion’s been used to target minority communities. It’s been used to target black people and then it’s you know as if and then they flip it as if it’s like the rich person’s you know the rich people can still fly to another country to get an abortion. Well that’s obviously terrible for a rich person to go do because they’re killing their offspring. How great would it be to not have the option of killing your offspring and to be supported in your offspring having life. I mean how wonderful is you know life is so wonderful. I would love to have entire groups of people not have the option of killing their offspring because that would represent them flourishing and having families that are not being torn apart by the trauma or the multi generational trauma or the lack of generations. You know coming into exist because of being snuffed out through what a terrible thing. And then, like, I was talking to this lady Joan Bautista, about the word abortion like it used to mean. It’s like, abort the mission, abort that airplane trip, abort that thing as if it never existed and don’t do it. And then here they, you know, so the word abortion is also full of lies because you’re already pregnant and you’re using the word abortion as if you can somehow magically go back to before conception and say we’re going to abort, you know, abort sex so that we don’t get pregnant but yet here we are, you know, nine weeks into it and we’re already pregnant the baby’s already, you know, at some level in development. And so the word abortion is full of lies and it’s I always just love to see that word abortion get shown for what it really is as manipulation and lies because it is. It’s deceiving people and it’s full of evil and it’s just black and full of death and destruction.
Jor-El Godsey :
It’s just, it’s just, you mean like the word, you mean kind of like the word slavery, right we, you know, we recognize that now for what it was and what it and the blight that it that it puts on the history of not just America but, you know all of Western civilization that accommodated slavery. The slave trade benefited from it, built economies around it those are ugly, ugly things now we’re from where we sit now looking back, but we had defenders of that and that in those instances we had people who championed the ability for a an entire state to hold slaves. That to me is why we should we should start using abortion States and life states, right, just like they used to use slave States and free states because the very title begins to communicate the value that we’re really talking about. And if you want abortion in your state, that’s fine. Own it. So own it so you can explain it you can explain or try to explain why that is such an important thing to have to be identified for your state. I mean, even worse, some of these states are not just shielding abortion within their states, but inviting people and even paying for people to come to their states, California, to get abortions like, that’s crazy craziness.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, well, I’m a board of vacation law.
Jor-El Godsey :
There you go. I’m so glad that those states have so much revenue that they can pay people to come to their state to have an abortion. Of course I say that facetiously i don’t think they have that revenue and I don’t think that that’s an appropriate way to use any taxpayers funding. But this is the nature of the ideology. And of the really of the, you mentioned earlier the enemy, the enemy itself and inspiring this kind of activity in supporting the culture of death.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and then and California is pushing through i don’t know. Like in the in the ballpark of 18 pro abortion laws as quickly as they can, including the most outlandish one was abortion all the way through perinatal, which means after birth and.
Jor-El Godsey :
Perinatal yeah, 28 days after birth.
Jacob Barr :
According to California law, yeah, it’s 28 days. But some groups define it as weeks after abortion or a year or two years but the California law defines it as like that 20 day. 20 days after to decide and then, yeah, the morgue is not allowed to do any research on the cause of death or if someone does an abortion in Texas, their assets are protected in California that’s another one of the laws or if they.
Jor-El Godsey :
Think about think about what you think about what you just said. I mean, even just hearing it, hearing it spoken out loud is crazy. So you can’t do an autopsy. So that means that there could, there could be something nefarious has gone on, but we cannot now investigate it so that’s how far we’re willing to go, at least in some areas, to protect this evil in our land yeah, that was it. Passed through the about a.
Jacob Barr :
Week and a half ago, I believe.
Jor-El Godsey :
It’s absolutely outrageous. And also by the way, I it has to be unconstitutional like there’s no way that that’s going to survive constitutional scrutiny on the US level. And I wonder about that particular bill this is just my personal opinion, not necessarily out of the staff for management of Harpy International or I Rapture, but I wonder if a bill like that would actually go to the Supreme Court. Is that the kind of bill that then is going to require the Supreme Court to expressly identify the both the humanity of the unborn child and then clarify the personhood of the unborn child so that the protections that is due persons under the fourteenth Amendment then also would go to the protections of the unborn child and the child that’s 28 days old. That would be interesting and it would be amazing then to use something so evil would be turned for good and would then allow the court to rule on things that they have been reluctant to rule on. But hey they were reluctant to rule positively against Roe so we’ve seen that possibility as being in existence is this going to be something that as these States and other politicians reach more for the abortion laws and reach more to protect abortion laws is that going to be the way to overcome that is going to be actually to clarify what Roe actually said originally. If this then is a person then we have to extend the protections that the that the amendments extended them just like they had to do with slaves just like they had to do with those that couldn’t vote. Just like those other things that we have corrected in our past. May it, you know if it if I again, I hate the idea that this law would even get that far but if it does, that seems to me the right pushback.
Jacob Barr :
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time that a law in California that was terrible went to the Supreme Court i mean Nisla versus Makara was just a few years ago with four, you know, pushing people to put things on their walls that they didn’t agree with promoting where abortion clinics were in 20 some languages and certain font size but not that the font size even matters but yeah, but then but yeah this is, this is like a, this is like shock territory like it doesn’t even fall. It just seems like most of the bills that are pushing through are all about large lumps of grant money, government money in order to finance this engine showing, you know, showing their interest in money at great levels. But this bill was about yeah, bringing, you know choosing death for you know being having you know abortion after birth perinatal as a new category of you know, first you know now we have the trimesters we have you know before birth and then Peri, you know this new territory of.
Jor-El Godsey :
Yeah, that’s someone’s life. There’s another word for that it’s called infanticide infanticide yeah, it is i mean, this is just the crazy talk that we’re that we’re dealing and we find is acceptable. It’s unconscionable.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, it it’s hard and I feel like they’re having so many bills that it’s hard to even keep up with it because and what’s also interesting is that sometimes, like, you know, it almost feels like sometimes the enemy’s trilogy is to use documents that are like the length of The Lord of the Rings or they have so many chap, you know, so many bills that you know, the average person only has 24 hours in their day and they have to, you know, eat and sleep and go to work and they don’t have time to look at all these things it’s all like if you throw enough spaghetti on the wall, you know, the person trying to clean it up won’t, won’t see it all like there’s just so much going out it’s hard to, it’s hard it’s hard to keep up and I feel.
Jor-El Godsey :
Like and I think and that’s intentional right that that’s the nature of intentional and you know I don’t know about you Jacob it’s one of the reasons I’m grateful that I’m in this part of the pro-life movement the part that just helps people. Because while we’re very of course mindful as we’ve been talking already about what’s happening at the Supreme Court what’s happening in the courts, what’s happening in the legislation about abortion, what our day-to-day job is really just helping her overcome Roe in her own life in that moment, right you know it’s not necessarily a grand conversion from a pro-choice position to pro-life although that happens. But it is a it is helping her to make a life decision for the life that’s within her now And that is that calling is not going to you said this earlier it’s just you know these things arise from a place that will be necessary almost regardless of what the law is. I it’s important to remind our friends in the US who are pregnancy help directors that there are entire nations that don’t allow any abortions on as well from their law but there are plenty of abortions happening anyway right so the even though the law were to go the entire way that and by the way you know Roe itself being taken down doesn’t make doesn’t outlaw abortion it simply removes the federal judiciary’s role in protecting the right to abortion but it still allows for it to happen. These are other countries have actual laws on their books that basically affirm the value of life and then protect against abortion and yet they’re not enforced or they’re enforced very lightly. So there is rampant abortion in many of these countries and so that’s a reality that we that even as we anticipate a post row world where Roe is not the controlling legal reality, we will have our own challenges of even completely life states like those that have made phenomenal advances in protecting women and protecting babies will also be subject to abortion and that’s where pregnancy help is going to be needed more than ever.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and i feel like just like there’s the body of Christ that has different parts for different purposes. The pro-life movement has different parts for different purposes. And the pregnancy health organizations are a very caring section who you know essentially working to help women in their scenario, you know overcome hardships, overcome anxiety, overcoming pressures from different sources promoting abortion in order to give them that hope and that you know a voice for life for them to hear and to and to see that someone is there for you know to provide care and help and you know helping them build a positive posture towards their scenario of having a baby inside them. And I and I feel like you know while this still while this is a draft and it hasn’t been you know completed. I still feel like we are we are in a we are seeing a you know we’re seeing a miracle in you know honestly this feels very miraculous and this feels very just unbelievable that, you know God has answered millions if not billions of prayers that have been probably billions of prayers that have been lifted up asking for Roe versus Wade to be overturned. And this is amazing and this is this is a time to you know while we’re in battle we’re we got the shield of Jesus and we’re hopefully armored. But you know meanwhile we can have this is a time to have joy and to praise God because he is he is doing miraculous things and this is his fingerprints are all over. You know the ability for Roe versus Wade to be overturned within our lifetime. This is just nothing short of amazing.
Jor-El Godsey :
That’s true. It’s something I was recalling a passage from scripture where it talks about, you know, this is the Lord’s battle and he will fight it for us. And while we have our part to do, just like the nation of Israel had their part to do, they had to take the field that, like you said, carry their Shields and their weapons into the field but there was still this reality that the Lord was fighting on their behalf that you know that we see some of the miracles in the Old Testament you know, he makes the army, the other army fight amongst itself and he but he also gives victory to the nation of Israel and this is where we are walking into something, that the Lord is fighting this battle. He’s going before us and we just have to continue to walk in what he’s called us to do and continue to lift his name and continue to celebrate the and champion the gift of life and of course, champion him as the giver of life.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and one of the things that I think it was one of the pastors at my church, he they he said many months ago, maybe a year ago, he was talking about the shield of faith, that we were going through different parts of the armor of God. And the shield of faith is not our faith. The shield of faith is Jesus’s faith. And we’re meant to hold, you know, his faith because Jesus’s faith, you know, his faith can protect us from any flaming arrow. And if you think about our faith having to, you know, defend ourselves against arrows, we might have some holes in our shield. But it with it being Jesus’s faith, it feels sort of like what Batman might use to go up against something or you know the ultimate Superman scenario you know, when it comes to like that level of strength and you know, an armor, it just feels completely large enough not just to cover us, but to cover our neighbors, to cover that you know, Jesus’s faith, when you hold up that shield, it can cover the people next to you. And if you join forces with a community of people who hold up Jesus’s faith, there is real defense and real protection from that from that experience and so I feel like if there’s something that Princess Clinic directors could hear, it’s to it’s to read about the faith of the shield of faith and to exercise that shield of faith. And then when things start to get hairy and as the pressure start to come as they are and will just note, you know those arrows are going to hit the shield and just make sure that you’re behind it and make sure that you’re helping others stay behind it and we’re going to be OK.
Jor-El Godsey :
And standing together, right that’s one of the things i take away from famous quotes from Ben Franklin right so if we, if we do not hang together, we shall certainly hang separately and this is the nature of the enemy that is after us you know we are soft targets for the abortion proponents because we actually put a sign in our building and we invite people to come in and be with us and so that makes us soft targets. So we have to be careful in these particular, this particular hour or whenever this decision is finally released, that we are vigilant we know we have our security systems are up we have our rapid response happening we have our agreement statements in hand so that we can speak to the media boldly about who we are, what we do and how we’re here to help we’re not, we’re not the ones, you know, standing out in front of the Supreme Court we’re the ones in our own communities trying to help women make a decision for life.
Jacob Barr :
So when a Precis Clinic director experiences a threat, a an attack today, tomorrow, in the near future, what would be your advice on what Heartbeat International would suggest or provide as a resource or a direction for them to consider?
Jor-El Godsey :
Well, we’ve written on this extensively and under a few scenarios we’ve not updated it with the most recent dynamics like in the last 48 hours but you know, generally with protests and media interactions, we have something called Center Defense that’s on our website it’s available. You have to, you’d have to, you know, be in a heartbeat affiliate and already have access or seek access for it. And we can help you with it we don’t just publish it out to where anybody can see it because we don’t want to necessarily unpack our playbook for the other side so then they can learn how to thwart it. But there are a couple simple things to keep in mind one is that we are his, we are gods, and that he will give us the words to speak we don’t have to shrink away from it. We just need to know our messaging, and our messaging can be as simple as this. One of our my favorite agreement statements is every woman should be loved and supported in her pregnancy. Like, that’s easy. That’s at the very heart of what we do we love women while they’re pregnant we love them so that they have every opportunity to make a life saving decision. The second thing is to surround our surround ourselves as you mentioned you know are we together in this that we surround ourselves with wise counsel. If we were confronted in a moment we want to pull those counselors in that could be some pastors. It could be some knowledgeable people. We want to have people who will rally beside us. You know, even some texting quick texting. Hey I’ve got this thing happening at our center can you come down and be a witness. Can you stand with me so have some you know I appreciate you know most of the vast majority of frequency center leaders are women. And so it would be good to have a few bigger guys on the on the list to come down because you just never know, have your phones handy record, start recording everything just like you see you know happens we watch little videos of things being recorded all the time. So have your phones handy and record everything that’s happening and just realize that again, God is on our side. It doesn’t mean that bad things don’t won’t happen it doesn’t mean that, you know absolutely everything will be protected from but it does mean that God will be with us through it all. And that’s our that’s to me, that’s my biggest comfort, is that God has called us into this work. And if He’s called us, then he will equip us, including equipping us for those kind of crazy moments we never imagined what happened or we never thought we’d have to do. But God is with us. And now we’re in one of those crazy moments that, as you said earlier, it’s a it’s a miracle moment it’s a history moment if indeed Roe is being overturned, we are in the midst of it and I think we’re going to be celebrating this to our generations, you know, ahead of the future and I I’m, I just can’t imagine the question like, well, where were you, grandpa or where were you know when that happened and or and here’s this is the scripture that occurred to me this morning Jacob is it’s an old King James reference. I want to say it’s like Matthew 2446 when it talks about being found doing his will right we’re that we’d be found doing and that’s really what we what we would want to say in that moment when you know this generation from the future says well what were you know how are you reacting in that moment well, hey, this that moment found me doing God’s will and protecting God’s gift of life and protecting this reality that he is the giver of life and we need to honor him in all things.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and so and so before you know, your pregnancy clinic starts to feel this heat, it sounds like that’s it’d be better for you to reach out to Heartbeat International as an affiliate or if you’re not an affiliate, great idea sign up to be an affiliate. And then you know essentially work through this documentation this advice that’s been prepared for pricing clinics who are going through these hard times and go through this training before you know the situation shows up on your doorstep and before it shows up on your sidewalk and before it shows up on in these different spaces. I think the time is now for you to go through this training because you know we are on the cusp of serious pressure coming and while having the shield of faith, yeah, I think I think it makes a lot of sense for you to be fully equipped using the knowledge and wisdom that this heart you know the heartbeat has put together and so that would make that makes perfect sense there’s.
Jor-El Godsey :
A quote. There’s a quote, Jacob, that goes along with that it says I thatched my roof in the sunshine and I am not now afraid of the rain. So some of that is that’s preparing for that storm that we can see coming and maybe it’s closer than we think, but preparing ahead is a good idea. There’s some simple things to do, your messaging, your rapid response team would be one of those. And then of course just some security things that make a lot of sense that frankly depending upon where you are, that’s become unfortunately something that we need to be doing and more intentional about doing.
Jacob Barr :
And I think it also, when it comes to the PR world and television, newspapers and reporter, when it comes to reporters asking for quotes as they are going to be doing a lot over the next coming weeks, this would be a really good time to go to the media training that heartbeat offers. And so that’s probably something that you should put right next to the, you know, going through the defense training that they offer because those reporter questions will be coming in asking for your opinion and your thoughts. And even if you’ve gone through it before, this would be a really good time to make sure that you’re sharp and ready. For responding because those yeah, you’re going to be put into some hard situations by reporters who may not be level and so.
Jor-El Godsey :
That’s yeah, May not, May probably not.
Jacob Barr :
I’m always optimistic and that’s my.
Jor-El Godsey :
Best I know you were taking myself that’s awesome.
Jacob Barr :
I’m trying to be optimistic.
Jor-El Godsey :
Yeah that’s really all about messaging and frankly it’s not as daunting or as difficult as we as we make it. It’s because we are really comfortable in our own skin and what we do, we just are not always really clear on messaging into that audience now we’re good at messaging to other audiences so we just need to take make sure that we it takes some time, which doesn’t take a lot of time but takes some time to be intentional about crafting our messaging and then staying on message. That’s media training in a nutshell, is crafting the message that you want and staying on message and staying within your lane, which you and I have been talking a lot about the legal activity of the of the flaunted justices and the attorneys and neither one of us are attorneys, right. So we’re a bit out of our lane when it comes to talking about such things but it’s always interesting just to kind of digest those things that are happening. But for us, when we’re called to talk into those other situations with that media, particularly that likely unfriendly media or the one that’s looking to uncover things we need to stick to the messaging that we know best, which is loving on people, helping them make a good decision, loving, you know, providing that loving support to every pregnant woman.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and I may not be a meteorologist, but I can tell you when it’s raining or I may not be AI, may not be a.
Jor-El Godsey :
Vet a biologist but you can you can tell us what the definition of a woman is, right? Yeah.
Jacob Barr :
And I may not be a vet, but I can tell you what a dog is excellent you know, there’s a, there’s a student, there’s a certain amount of elementary knowledge that I think we all can share and these laws affect us and so, you know, while we’re not lawyers and we’re not judges, we are, we are very much passionate about life and very much passionate about ideas. And while we may, you know, maybe we’re, you know, we’re fallible and we’re able to make, you know, make mistakes. There’s there. There’s still authenticity in trying and so I think there’s no reason to not give it. Yeah to not work at it and to be ready and but all that to say is these journalists are going to be calling, they’re going to be emailing, they’re going to be asking you for quotes on this and that. And so you may as well start practicing you may as well start making your team sharp and sharpening iron with iron because you’re going to be needing some skills that in the next couple of weeks that will reflect the you know the world that we live in and you know the month you know January 2023 fifty years from Roe versus Wade is less than eight months away I believe it’s just so close and so I feel like, you know, this is, it’s almost like we got a pricey test today and we’re eight months away and this is where we’re at.
Jor-El Godsey :
Here OK I.
Jacob Barr :
Don’t know we’re just, we’re in, we’re in some first trimester of this logging path. I don’t know i’m just making that up but it feels, it just feels very, yeah, it feels very epic.
Jor-El Godsey :
It is it is epic and it’s been a long day, but it’s it is a big deal what’s going on and we just pray that and this is what you were saying earlier is we’re just going to have to pray it through, pray it to its completion so that we can see this nation finally be on the on the footing that will lead to really I think redemption for us from this evil of abortion.
Jacob Barr :
So I want to say one more thing and then I would like to ask you to pray and sort of wrap us up. So what my favorite verse in the Bible is James five sixteen which says the prayers. I’m sorry, let me back up. Confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. And so that’s the recipe. In just a few words of how to find healing confess your sins one to another and then and then the verse goes on to say the prayers of a righteous man, maybe the King James righteous person maybe Nivi forget availeth much or very or worketh a great deal or very powerful availeth much. So essentially you know what our country needs is to confess sins to each other and ask righteous people to pray and to not judge each other, but to encourage people to, you know, look at Jesus and I think that’s, you know, that verse offers so much hope when it comes to going from a place of death to a place of healing and when and when it comes to like just in a few words, you know, pray. I mean confess your sins one to another and ask people who know Jesus to pray for you like that’s the recipe for having a life changing experience and then finding a community that will help you experience that. So drill will you, will you pray and just simply encourage the executive directors who are listening to this in a way that will help them? Yeah, just pray for the, yeah, a blessing and defense and also pray for the Supreme Court justices and their families.
Jor-El Godsey :
Love too. All right well, Father, we first as Jacob, remind us, as your word remind us to confess, Lord, and we confess the sin of our nation that has denied the sanctity of life, that has diminished the beauty and the wonder of the gift of life. And Lord, we have allowed this law, this so-called right to stand lord, So, Father, we confess that as the sin of our nation. We pray, Lord, that you would release us from the bondage that has created. And Lord, we thank you that you can lead us into righteousness, Lord, and that’s what we pray for we thank you, Father, for the courage of these five justices that voted to overrule this abomination of a law. We thank you for their courage to be counted, stand up and be counted, Lord, as best we know, Lord and we pray that it that it will come to completion, that at least five would say this must be this way in our land and that we can no longer be held to that unrighteous standard that has been raised up for now nearly 50 years. We thank you, Father, that you protect them, that you watch over their minds, watch over their hearts, certainly watch over them physically, Lord, protect them their bodies, Lord, that they can, they can deliver on this promise, on this vote. And then you watch over their families. Lord, we pray against the schemes of those who are, who are outraged and upset and unhinged about this, these five in particular and that would seek to lash out lord, we confess that things that we see on Twitter are just an abomination of outrage and vitriol and everything that is unholy and uncivilian. And yet, Lord, you stepped into the our world to bring your peace and your presence and so, Lord, that’s what we seek now in the face of all that, in the midst of all that, and even beside all of that, we stand for you and we praise you, Lord, that you can still accomplish what you desire. So I thank you, Father, for every pregnancy help leader, for every person that’s a part of this work. I pray that you strengthen them, that you give them courage, Lord, for this moment and beyond. And that you give them every resource that they need, every good thought, every clear idea, and every good thing that stands next to them in the form of more people and more opportunities and just a resurgence of those that are stepping up to say, I want to be a part of this because this is going to be more necessary than ever lord, you can do that, Lord, you can accomplish these things because with you we are a majority. And we thank you, Father, that we’re probably a majority anyway, but even still it’s You are the majority and we stand with you, Lord so we thank you, Father. We praise you, and we bless you, and we count on you, Lord, to carry us through to victory in this season in Jesus name, amen.
Jacob Barr :
Amen. Thank you, Terrell it’s been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you for.
Jor-El Godsey :
Always fun to talk to you, Jacob grateful for your optimism.