The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 35 with Jor-El Godsey & Peggy Hartshorn | Talking About their new book The Power of Pregnancy Help

The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 35 with Jor-El Godsey & Peggy Hartshorn | Talking About their new book The Power of Pregnancy Help
Loading
/

Listen to Jor-El Godsey, Peggy Hartshorn and Jacob Barr talk about The Power of Pregnancy Help. Jor-El & Peggy co-authored this new book. Hear about how this book captures the history of Heartbeat International and the prolife movement as a whole – as Heartbeat is connector amongst most prolife leaders across the globe.

Summary

This is Jacob Barr, and I’d like to share a summary of our recent Pro-Life Team Podcast episode. We had a meaningful conversation with Peggy Hartshorn and Jor-El Godsey from Heartbeat International. We discussed their new book, “The Power of Pregnancy Help,” which chronicles the story of Heartbeat International and its 50-year influence in the pro-life movement. Peggy and Jor-El shared their personal journeys in the movement, highlighting the growth and impact of pregnancy help centers and the evolving challenges they face. We also touched on the importance of personal connections in supporting those facing unplanned pregnancies, the role of faith in their work, and future perspectives post the Dobbs decision. It was a powerful discussion that underscored the significant, ongoing work of the pro-life movement.

Hashtags that match the content of this podcast would include:
#ProLifeTeamPodcast, #HeartbeatInternational, #ThePowerOfPregnancyHelp, #ProLifeMovement, #PregnancyHelpCenters, #FaithInAction, #DobbsDecision, #UnplannedPregnancySupport, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #LifeAffirmingChoices.

Transcript

The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

Jacob Barr :

Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i am Jacob Barr i’m here with Peggy and Jor-El, and we’re going to talk about the new book, The Power of Pregnancy Help, talking about the story of Heartbeat International and how it is weaved into the pro-life movement in the pro-life sphere over the last 50 years. So Peggy and Jor-El, I am so glad to have you on this podcast. Thank you so much for being here would you please introduce yourself as if you were talking to a group of Executive directors of Pregnancy Clinics?

Peggy Hartshorn :

You want to go first, Jor-El?

Jor-El Godsey :

Well, I’m Jor-El Godsey, president of Heartbeat International, and I have the privilege of being Peggy Hartshorn successor to that role. She’s been in the movement a long time and I have not been in it as long, but also a good long time and together it’s been a joy to work on a history of the pregnancy health movement. And as a because that’s really the history of Heartbeat as well. And so it’s a it’s a privilege to be able to do a podcast with you, Jacob, also a friend, for a good, long time.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And I’m Peggy Hartshorn, and I got into the pro-life movement in 1973 and really began to focus primarily on pregnancy help when we started housing pregnant girls in our home in 1975 So I learned on the job what they need, who they are, how to try to get the resources for them and the complexities of their situations and their feelings and their thoughts. And God just solidified that more and more until after about 20 years as a volunteer in the movement, I thought he was calling me to work full time in the movement and to become the President and 1st paid staff person actually for Heartbeat International. And that was 1993 So I had the blessing of doing that for 23 years and also of having for the last 10 years of that Jor-El Ghazi as my right hand person. And so he was the perfect person to take the ball and run with it when it was time for me to transition as chairman of the board, which I am now and I still love just being involved in the work from the role of the board.

Speaker 1 :

Thank you so much both for being on i’d like to start off by sharing somewhat of an anecdote or a story about How I Met you, Peggy. So my colleague and friend Jeremy, who used to work with me, we went to the Heartbeat conference and we were, well, maybe back up a minute. So John Tabor, we were working with John Tabor out of Tucson and he told us that if we would pay half, he would pay the other half to get us to the Heartbeat conference and he made a compelling case for how important it would be for us to go and over. And I think he, yeah, it’s all about to say is that he was a driving force for us to go the first time. And it really opened her eyes to the group who was you know who has Heartbeat and to the pregnancy clinics who were working so hard with so little across the across the map. And so we were really energized and I can’t remember which year it was it’s probably like 2007 but he was giving a talk and Sister Paula was in the audience and then that’s when we made the connection with Sister Paula which then LED us to being connected with her for the next I think 14 years or so of like working with her at ILS And. But one of the favorite stories that Jeremy would often share as an icebreaker because he also gave several workshops at Heartbeat probably i think one year he gave 3 workshops very often by two for several years in a row. And what his icebreaker was that when he met you in the elevator he tripped over his suitcase as he was saying hello and it turned out to be this really sort of funny way that he would introduce himself at a workshop is he would explain how he met you. Now here’s Peggy Hartshorn. And then as I was trying to say hello, I trip out of the elevator through my, you know, with luggage and it’s a really good ice breaking story and people would laugh and chuckle and it just showed the reality of life and how life can be fun.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And I probably was laughing because I’ve done that before myself, you know?

Speaker 1 :

Yeah. And I really enjoyed this book is, I feel like it more than just heartbeat i feel like you’re you’re capturing the history of the pro-life world the pro-life sphere as Heartbeat is weaved in as like a main connecting force throughout all of these players and characters and stories and through God working in so many different places i feel like you’re, you know, just the magnitude, like right before the right before the podcast started drilling and we’re talking like if you actually listed out all the people who were involved and part of these stories, we’d have a phone book we wouldn’t have yeah, right. And I liked how you started off by sharing how God LED you one step at a time towards this role and it felt like God’s fingerprints were on all sides of those doors and so.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And, you know, that was Jor-El’s story too i finally got him to tell his story at the beginning of the book he’s always so modest. But you know, God had his hand on Jor-El. All those, all those steps as well. And we’ve got a picture of him in the book with his T-shirt on that. What did it say, Jor-El? Something about.

Jor-El Godsey :

Rescue.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Rescue Florida, He at that.

Jor-El Godsey :

Point Operation Yeah, I came through the activist side of the of the pro-life movement by getting arrested at Operation Rescue events, which happened a few times and ended up in jail in fact, that, you know, that’s kind of how I opened that chapter, is the first time I heard about pregnancy centers that was in jail, which is not where you normally would expect to hear such things but it was because a bunch of churches, representative of churches, had been arrested and in jail and someone says, hey, there’s this thing called a pregnancy center opening near you guys were like, what’s that? And it’s like I got to be the one to go and visit that local center and I was just captured at that point in time it’s like, well, this is cool and very the compassionate, loving outreach that it represented was a very compelling mission.

Peggy Hartshorn :

A lot more productive. A lot more productive. We are still involved i mean pregnancy help will continue to go on and will expand and strengthen and other tactics that the pro-life movement has been called to do. Sometimes have a place for a certain time and place, but pregnancy help, well, has been there since the beginning. You know, even before the Supreme Court decision, pregnancy help began to develop when abortion started to be promoted in various states and so God’s people stepped forth then and still are. I don’t see any end to it, and maybe even it needs to even be expanded even more and I think God will do that. As states begin restricting abortions after the Dobbs decision, I really believe it’ll be a major time of expansion for pregnancy help.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah because the, you know the unplanned pregnancy doesn’t go away just when it becomes illegal it essentially you know that’s a sin problem and sin doesn’t ever you know it’s there for the long road And so there’s always help of it. There’s always help needed and so like that’s the and so having pregnancy clinics prepared to help and support as that as the need continues on is such an amazing work to be a part of.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And, you know, sometimes, I mean, we’ve even heard this from centers in states where abortion has been more restricted that once women realize coming into the centers that, OK, the time has passed for them to be able to have an abortion in that state sometimes, and actually a lot of times it’s a, it’s a relief. And I’ve had women say that to me through the years. Oh, good. You know, now how can I have this baby and what can you do to help? You know, they’ve been pressured, urged, pushed, coerced in various ways and made to think that abortion is the best solution for them and for the people around them. But they know that it’s not deep inside. So now they can get back to, OK, how do I have this baby and how do I do it in the best possible way? So I think that’s one reason that we will have a gigantic expansion, because women know that abortion is not the best thing for their babies and for themselves, and once there’s a limit, they will seek out pregnancy help.

Speaker 1 :

So Peggy I want to say, I want, I want to say thank you to you for writing this book with Jor-El and for both of you to say thank you to you. Because I feel like this was a story that needed to be told and it’s going to, I think it’s going to be referenced as other stories are written down the road like this is like a historical account of all of these efforts and for like you know the chapter devoted to Sister Paula along with the her story weaved in throughout the rest of the book is such a beautiful thing because she was such an i could speak essentially I felt like she was very unique when it came to her loving kindness and her ability to lead through questions and for me I felt like it also reflects for essentially her Catholic beliefs were weaved in so kindly and gently with evangelical and other groups that it really was such a bit a bridge builder and I feel like that also reflects sort of I remember going to a workshop that drill put on, you know when it comes to like some clinics or Catholic and some are evangelical and the way that drill, the way you weaved the stories together explaining, you know such a bridge building experience when it comes to these different faiths and different flavors of faith i suppose we’re all having the commonality of Jesus and how we work together and it’s just a beautiful thing and I feel like Sister Paula connected with these evangelical groups with such an amazing picture of, like how Jesus is bigger than a denomination or a single group.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Yes, and i agree with you and i was very much influenced by Sister Paul of course, I was trained by her in the early days of AAI and as you mentioned the questions, yes, she was so good at helping people to think through who they are, what their feelings are by the questions she asked and of course, that really influenced me and it influenced the love approach that I ended up writing how do we translate what Sister Paula could uniquely do she was so good at that. How can we try to teach something like that, you know, to a large group of people? And so the questions were so important that’s the L step of the love approach. And then opening the options in a in a more direct way and to a certain extent, and expressing a vision. Being able to share a new vision and a New Hope, What would Jesus do? You know, more explicitly and then the very explicit help of providing resources in the East step extended empower. So I tried to combine what I learned from counseling, you might say, from social work and connecting to the resources, from evangelism in the V step and as a teacher, the O Step in the options. So I tried to put all that together in a way that we could really expand that way of loving and caring in providing help in a way that people could remember easily and could take with them and could be used internationally too. But Sister Paula was a big influence in that for me and.

Jor-El Godsey :

She was a very well trained social work, I mean licensed social worker and kind of had that skill as training and in the early days of the pregnancy help as it is today, it the goal is to try to get someone who does not have those kind of credentials available to them we love having social workers in the movement and who join us whether on staff or as volunteers. But really the call in those days was to kind of empower the layman so to speak and i think what Peggy did was kind of translate some of those skills that some people will go for years and of course Sister Paula had a had a tremendous ability to natural ability to do that as well but she also had deep training and so the challenge is to try to figure out a way to engage the layperson the people that are coming with a heart, they have a they have their own connection or history maybe they were they were themselves mothers or had experienced an unplanned pregnancy at some point maybe even many people that are in our movement have had an abortion in their past. So it’s getting that willing heart that has a compassion for the work and then kind of supercharging their training in a very focused way and that’s really what the love approach did, as did other trainings in that era, was to try to get people who were suddenly motivated to help these women have a different choice besides abortion.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah i I’m so, I’m so glad that you got you included a chapter in so much time for her part of the story as I just feel that you know the honor was so needed to be shared so that her story can be shared amongst the pro-life community.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And isn’t it an amazing thing that, you know, she became sick rather suddenly and but she had the time to leave us a beautiful message, which for our fiftieth anniversary little video that we were able to share and actually we were able to kind of complete her story before we published the book. So I felt that was a God thing.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah. So Jor-El, when it comes to this what you this writing of this book, what message would you want someone to be left with as they’re thinking and remembering of what they read like what would you want them to? To resonate or to, you know, to hear echo in their mind?

Jor-El Godsey :

Well, to me it’s captured in the title. It’s that there is a power to pregnancy help those two those words don’t often fit together in a normal conversation but when you can kind of step back and look at the fullness of what the pregnancy help movement has accomplished what I love to say and know to be absolutely true is that our work cannot be our successes cannot be undone by the next legislative bill that’s signed by the by such and such politician. You know our successes walk around and live and it have lives and then have families of their own and go on i mean we’re, you know, we’re in there are 50 plus years now of pregnancy help and that means somewhere there there’s someone who’s there, probably many grandparents who otherwise might have been aborted and not have had the ability to see the lineage that they have so that is that to me, I hope is the biggest takeaway And then looking a little closer and realize that this wasn’t done because someone had a really good plan in the very beginning and lots of money and just, you know, made all this happen. This is really a bunch of people, as we talked about earlier, a lot of people involved who simply were stepping up and saying what can I do and how can I help and how can I do this and it’s certainly, it’s not the entire picture of the pro-life movement, but it is a picture of the pregnancy help movement, which I believe has been the backbone of the pro-life movement for decades as things as things have like risen and fallen in other aspects of the pro-life movement as the as the political environment has been favorable and then a very unfavorable. And as it’s gone through all those ups and downs. The pregnancy health movement has just been keeping on keeping on and that’s why it’s been a joy to celebrate i think it was counted in just a couple of years ago, 2 million clients served at a, you know, at a pregnancy center in the US Those are not small numbers and it’s only because of.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And you mean 2 million in one year, right?

Jor-El Godsey :

2 million in one year, yeah, sorry, Thank you for that clarification. 2 million in one year and that’s no small thing for centers that are often under resourced certainly could always do with more. And yet they just keep on keeping on and that’s the power of pregnancy, help and action.

Speaker 1 :

How about you, Peggy? What what was your the thought that you would like people to be, to resonate and to find did as they’re, you know, flipping through this book after they read through it, You know, looking for thoughts and things to consider. What would you like them to what would you like to have an echo in their mind if they’re considering what was written?

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, I think i will piggyback on what Jor-El said in terms of god did this because this book is just filled with ordinary people, ordinary people who you would never think could do what they did and what they are doing. And I was, I was, I mean we held up the book for a little while because I kept wanting more pictures. I want more pictures i want more people in here. I want the whole list of all the people who have been on the board since the beginning of the years of Heartbeat i want every servant leader. I want every location, every conference, because I know people will remember those things. You know, we have so many pictures of moms and babies in here. There they are, real heroes of course, with abortion pill Rescue, we’ve got hundreds and hundreds of pictures. I’m a picture person so you know, to me, even if they don’t read every word, just looking at the pictures of the heroes, ordinary people who have become heroes because they said yes to the Lord and he worked through them and those that we were able to help and save in the pregnancy help movement. So I guess that’s the thing I would want them to remember the most. And that’s really the power, isn’t it? I mean, God is really the power behind pregnancy help. And then he acts through ordinary people who bring his love to the world, whether that’s the mother for her child, whether that’s the volunteer in the pregnancy Center for the mom and the child, whether it’s the center leader and director who’s loving the staff and encouraging them and their gifts. You know, it all is from the power of the Lord through us that this happens. So hopefully you can see it on the faces of the people whose pictures are in the book.

Speaker 1 :

I believe that yeah it feels like this book is showing gratitude to the people who have essentially been servant leaders in their communities and essentially giving well and that’s what Heartbeat normally does every conference is they honor the people who are working so diligently to serve Jesus through their daily lives and by in serving in their communities. I believe it was last year that you honored Martha Villa with a Was it a servant Leadership Award? And she?

Peggy Hartshorn :

She became one of our legacy awards.

Speaker 1 :

Legacy oh.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Only had, I don’t know, Jor-El do it have we had ten, maybe, or 12?

Jor-El Godsey :

Yeah, it’s about 10, Yes, legacy.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Legacy awards, yes and yes we were able to honor Martha for that.

Speaker 1 :

So thank you so much for honoring her.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Oh, is one of our Legacy Award winners as well.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah they’re they both reflect Jesus so well i yeah Sister Paula I think reflects Jesus and his ability to communicate and I think Martha reflects Jesus like I think she reflects God’s heart when it comes to her compassion for others and so and so that that’s just yeah i just feel I just want to say thank you for honoring these people who I have seen and I would say there is I can’t think of anyone better to honor than those who you have picked so your selection process is really good.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, and you know, the great thing for Jor-El and for me is that we actually do know and have relationships with all these people. You know, you may know some, maybe you don’t know all, but that’s the blessing for us to be in this full time that we get to be with these people wow.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah and so I feel like in this book i didn’t i learned in this book that you were part of writing the love approach i didn’t know that until i read this and I feel like Heartbeat staff has really championed that concept of leading with love when interacting with others. One of the stories that i shared this with Jor-El many years ago when I went to was probably my first time at a Heartbeat conference probably 2006 or 2007 and I was in a workshop and it was being done by. I think it was Brett with option line and he was very kind and loving to me as someone in the audience not knowing that a competitor could be kind to another competitor like that was foreign to me. And here he is saying kind words in that workshop to me. It just blew me away and it really set me up to follow in his footsteps for having a desire to build a pro-life team even amongst groups would normally be competitors and so I feel like your team has had an impact you know many dominoes later it keep it continues to provide fruit and so and I can also you know everyone on your team i would say I’ve had positive experiences with and I’ve only had experiences probably with like 10 % of your team.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, the other 90 % are just like that, I can assure you.

Jor-El Godsey :

Maybe better, maybe better. Cause ’cause he’s usually putting up with me so i think he, yeah, I think the dances are better with the other 90 %.

Speaker 1 :

As well yeah, that so the love approach, I don’t. I mean when it comes to the love approach, being part of your who you are as your culture, I believe that must be there, even though that wasn’t necessarily said in the text. Like I believe you’ve championed that, not just serving clients with the love approach. It sounds more like you’ve championed that with helping, with talking to anybody, it feels like.

Jor-El Godsey :

Well, let me speak to that. Let me speak to that because Peggy drafted it and not only did she draft it and put it on paper, but it’s in her heart and it just, it oozes out of her at every at every opportunity. And that is part of the blessing of that I had in joining Heartbeat International and having the ability to receive that i you know, i would. I kid with my wife i had to i didn’t naturally get mercy as a gift from God i had to marry it right so but with Peggy, I I’ve learned and to understand more about what it means to have a love approach in everything that we do now. You know do we do it perfectly no. But at least to have that as our foundational connection and so Eggy’s not only writing it, but living it has really sewn that into the heartbeat culture on our team and our and our staff and it’s a it’s a it’s been a blessing to receive it and to learn it, and then to get the opportunity to live it as well. Hopefully even a fraction of has how well Peggy lives in.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, thank you for that, Jor-El that’s very sweet but you know people did, I guess we do, we did on the heartbeat staff and we do use it somewhat naturally and so Betty McDowell, you know, our Vice President for affiliate services was after me for a number of years to write a Love approach training, a love approach book for everybody. We call it the Love Approach for everybody. And it is to be used on your staff, on your board, in your home, with your spouse, with your neighbors, with your church. And so we do, if you like books, how do you have the Love Approach book we wrote it, the Love approach for everyone it’s called what is it called Jor-El 4 Proven Steps or for the Love Approach, 4 Proven Steps to for problem solving and relationship building in your family, church and community. So that’s something we do provide, you know, because even our staff has recognized, wow, I guess we’re learning a new way of communicating, let’s teach this to everybody. So it’s a little book it’s a it’s built on stories of people who learn the love approach and then go back and use it with the spouse or use it on the job or, you know, use it with someone at church, use it with a son. And so it’s a story again, stories like you mentioned in this book, the stories, people love the story so that’s that book you can get that from Heartbeat too. Thank you.

Jor-El Godsey :

Yeah and truthfully, Jacob, it comes from the reality that what that woman who’s at risk in that moment of being at risk for abortion, what she needs is someone to listen to her and to understand where she’s at and then to introduce what, you know, more, maybe more possibilities than what she’s and this is really the same path that we should practice with one another i know, I know, Peggy really derived it from the love chapter in scripture 1st Corinthians 13 and that’s so that’s it’s applicable to all of us that’s why it’s very helpful and it’s a it’s something that guides the core of our team at Heartbeat day in and day out.

Speaker 1 :

One of the messages in the book that really struck me as being something that I think people need to hear more often is the best alternative to abortion is another person? Can Peggy, can you speak to the back story of that line?

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, actually, I think it came from a friend of mine in another state, while we’re from Ohio i think it was from a friend of mine. When he said it to me and he was involved in pregnancy help, it just stuck with me. I mean, I never forgot it because that actually is the essence of what we do it’s person to person, one person helping another person. Some people say it’s almost like the Good Samaritan, you know, it’s like we can stand beside, we can help lift, we can accompany, you know. And that’s what women need and families need they need somebody to help them through those difficult times. Sometimes they only need someone to say you can do it. I’ve heard so many stories from women who have come back to tell their story. One at a pregnancy center banquet I heard she said she got up to give her testimony she said she heard about the banquet the center was celebrating, I believe their fortieth year and she just contacted them the week before and said you won’t Remember Me nobody there will Remember Me. But about 30 years ago, I came to your center and I only came in once. And she said i talked my mother, she talked my boyfriend’s mother. I talked her into letting me come here before she took me to another city to get an abortion i said please let me go there. And she said I didn’t know what you could provide i was only there once. But the one thing you said to me was you can do it, you can do it and we can help you. Well, she never came back but that gave her the courage to say I’m not going to have an abortion, I can be a mother, I can do this. So and then she introduced her 30 year old son who was with her that night at the banquet. So you know it’s we don’t know the impact of just being one person who in a in when someone’s in crisis steps forward with compassion care and says we can help. You know and gives them the affirmation, you know that they have the strength within themselves and the power with God’s grace, you know to really conquer these problems that are pulling them down at that particular point in time. So it is just one person to another on our hotline on option line. Jor-El can speak to this too, that women have all kinds of ways of connecting with us electronically, but they still like to talk to another person on the phone, right Jor-El?

Jor-El Godsey :

That’s true, yeah. Yep it’s still happening. Even the younger generation is still interested in making phone calls maybe they’ll chat more often and whatnot, but yeah, they’ll connect. I want to add to what Peggy was saying, ’cause I think it to me that phrase, Jacob, it really kind of unpacks a couple of other concepts in a way. One of which is it’s an invitation that you as a person can make a difference. You know, it it’s as simple as that and I think that is the power of what we understand from Scripture, that God is inviting us just to be willing and obedient and step out and i think that affirmation does that it invites people to say, well, I’m just a person, I can do this as well. You know Peggy was talking about we the book is filled with otherwise ordinary people who have done extraordinary things. And then the other thing that I think that phrase reminds us is that you know there are technologies and tools and even laws and things that will come down the down the Pike and we celebrate those the ones that are good and that what not but ultimately this is always a person to person reality. You know it’s a person that gets pregnant it’s a person that feels those pressures and those tools and technologies are wonderful and we certainly pray for more laws and legislation to be drafted that will help us. But ultimately, it’s going to be that best alternative to abortion, even when the law is already outlawing abortion is the best alternative, is going to be another person helping them to realize what is really already deep within them because God put it there.

Peggy Hartshorn :

So true.

Speaker 1 :

When I think of the Good Samaritan story, many of us have been different characters in that story we’re not always the Good Samaritan role sometimes. You know the lady that you are sharing about sounds like she was the one who was left in the side of the road and needing medical care. And so it’s amazing that someone was able to help her get medical care and pick up that cost for a bit and then but sometimes I feel like the people who are in our movement or who need to be in our movement are sometimes are the religious leader who is busy on their way down the road with a full calendar, lots of things to do and really just needs to slow down and you know, consider helping the person that they’re passing by. And sometimes people in our movement, you know, are the people who were the abuser and who left that person hurt on the side of the road and need to repent and then turn around to, you know, to then be able to help the next person. And sometimes we’re the. Yeah so I feel like though in that Good Samaritan story, each character in there represents someone you know, personally, i can see how each person in there I I’ve been each of those people i’ve been the religious person i’ve been the abuser i’ve been the abused. I’ve been all of those different people in that story. And not always the Good Samaritan, the person who we always strive to be or you know, with, you know, that’s the right answer. But the other people are very often, you know part of our real world. And so I feel like the call is for people who are busy to find, you know, to make this a priority because it’s important for people who have hurt somebody else through, you know, some way to realize that they can, they can still become the Good Samaritan and a future story. And so it’s a lot to pull from that.

Peggy Hartshorn :

That’s so true and one of the things I was thinking as you were talking one group, you didn’t talk about where the people at the inn where the Good Samaritan dropped off the victim, you know, he rescued them in the crisis, but then he dropped them off at the inn. Well, you know, they took care of him long term. And so that could be the people in the church, You know, that could be the people in one of our maternity homes that could be any of us again, who a person is through the crisis. But they still need a lot of love and help and support. So factoring that in two, that’s beautiful what you were saying, I think, yeah.

Speaker 1 :

And so why not going back to option line, it feels like option line is your gift to the pro-life world when it comes to having a service that is that expands beyond just the heartbeat affiliates where when it comes to driving traffic to those ends, those places of help and rescue. And I think that is just really, you know, being open twenty four seven every day of the year, providing care through phone, chat, text in a way that help schedule an appointment so that people can get in front of another person. And having someone answer the I think it was your words, Peggy, that you said you wanted someone to answer the phone you didn’t want a voicemail or something like that and I can, I can say that is spot on and beautiful to have another person is so much like I don’t know what % better, maybe a percent better % ten thousand percent % than a voicemail or a phone tree is the worst. Did you call 9-1-1 you’re getting a phone tree.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And you know jacob, not only the people that you’re thinking of who maybe think they’re pregnant, they’ve taken a pregnancy test they don’t know what to do or you know their boyfriend’s abandoned they don’t know what to do. I think Jor-El might speak to some of the other collaborations that we have with option Line, because you’re right, it’s a gift not just thank you for saying that, not just to pregnancy help, but we really, we really collaborate in Option Line with a lot of other parts of the movement.

Jor-El Godsey :

Yeah, there are a number of organizations that we answer their calls for them at option line. We you know we don’t necessarily answer it but using their branding but we but they know that they can rely on us to direct the kind of a client that is looking for the services that they have for. So for instance, we work with Safe Haven Alliance. So Safe Haven Alliance is a is a small but mighty group that is all across the country but they couldn’t on their you know with their ability or capability they could not host a twenty four seven three sixty five call center so we do that and that way then they publish their number we know when it comes and it’s and then someone’s calling on that line. And then we know that if they’re looking to place that child and find someone you know that’s the safe haven alliances the ones that are kind of fulfilling the laws. Which is now in all 50 states where a woman can relinquish her child if she’s maybe she’s just had a baby and she’s overwhelmed by it all and feels like the only thing that she can do is place that child in the in the care of the authority so that it can potentially find a better path than we answer that we answer those calls and direct them to that to those folks that are in every single state as well they work across the country and we serve them in that way. And then we also are able to answer the call for organizations maybe they are only available weekdays or in regular business hours and then we’re the ones helping take overnight calls for them so we do that with not only the twenty two hundred pregnancy help organizations that are on the list itself, but for about two dozen organizations that are doing some aspect of that kind of outreach of pregnancy help.

Speaker 1 :

And I think you, your heartbeat, honored the servant. Well, the gentleman who started Safe Haven, I think it was about five years ago the gentleman with the cowboy hat, maybe the cowboy boots i forget I was next to his booth in the workshop, I mean in the vendor area and believe the lady that was with him out of Phoenix, arizona was actually the first baby rescued through Safe Haven and I believe she was like 30 something and so, yeah, that group’s been around and she was there, you know, working in their Safe Haven vendor booth. I don’t think they’re regular vendors because that’s the first time I’ve interacted with them. But at the same time, yeah, they’ve been around for that number of years as she was the 1st story, you know, there on the vendor floor talking to people very, you know, just a wonderful person.

Peggy Hartshorn :

That’s i love how you remember so many of the powerful things at HARPY Conference and you know it’s true that HARPY Conference brings together an amazing group of people and often different from year to year, not always exactly the same people, but you meet these phenomenal heroes everyone has a wonderful story in the exhibit areas, you know, at the coffee machine, you know, in the praise and worship. I mean, it’s just in the workshops, amazing people. It’s sometimes, I remember talking to some people who have come for the first time and they said it’s just like, you know, drinking out of a fire hose. There’s so much powerful stuff coming at them all the time and wonderful people. But thanks for sharing all those things, Jacob. I hope more people can participate in our conferences.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah, i think the story of you know, the Prezi Clinic movement, if it’s full of gratitude and all as well as grief and mourning, it’s we’re it’s we’re mourning the loss of babies who didn’t make it. But we’re at the same time we have gratitude and thanks for those who are rescued and so there we have this. You know, it’s hard and sad but at the same time there’s joy and good things and there’s a it’s a it’s a proverb that says, you know rejoice with those who are having joy and then be sad with those who are sad it’s the paraphrase version i can’t remember the exact words but the idea though is I feel like the praise the clinic movement really encaptures that verse of you know, having joy with those who are celebrating life and birthdays that were almost not, you know, didn’t happen. And then also the same time being able to mourn and feel sad and grief with those who you know as many stories are sad and so I feel like our movement is full of both sides or both parts of yeah, gratitude and grief at the same time.

Jor-El Godsey :

Which is why it’s very difficult to understand why anyone would have anything against the pregnancy health movement but we have our detractors, you know, largely they arise we did a whole chapter on this about defending against attack. And I it’s just like, I just don’t understand it at its core, except that it’s ideologically driven sometimes it’s the people that have been hurt by the abortion industry that can’t find themselves to see it beyond it or above it. So they’re motivated that but frankly it’s a there’s a political machine that’s out there and even now Jacob, that they’re going after things like the abortion Pill reversal, they’re targeting pregnancy centers there’s some very unfortunate articles out there that are published by otherwise well respected people in the medical community that turn out that they’re there. They have a connections with the abortion industry for instance since and they’re writing unkind things about the pregnancy help centers in particular. So it’s very, it’s very challenging to watch that and watch how kind of on the political spectrum some people will find pregnancy centers in particular to be very soft targets because they’re stationary and they’re warm and kind people and they really don’t want to be, they don’t want to be a big voice in the community they just want to be a helping hand. And so they end up being soft targets and easy targets for those that are trying to do negative things against us.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah, that’s, yeah, the attacks well, Speaking of APR like that’s an ongoing attack and it feels like, yeah, resolution is still pending on that being turned around and there’s a.

Jor-El Godsey :

Lot of yeah, that chapter’s still being written. That chapter’s still being written right now, ’cause it’s a it’s a huge thing. Abortion pill reversal has. It’s almost, I think it’s God’s answer to this, the rise of chemical abortion, which we could see a little bit but really didn’t know fully how much it was going to be a factor in our future and right now on the verge of Dobbs being announced we already know that the, you know, the administration that’s empowered now has relaxed some of the rules so that chemical abortion can be delivered by mail more readily. So we know that that’s increasing we saw Goodmacher’s own numbers were announced after our book was written, but announced just recently that they’re saying in 2020 we had estimated that the percentage of chemical abortions for all abortions is going to be around 50 %, but in fact it’s not, it’s 54 % so that and that’s a preliminary number they’re saying i think that they might even adjust that up higher and if you if you then extend out the trajectory that suggests that in 2023 the number could be as high as 70 % so we know that chemical abortion is increasing it’s already driving the abortion numbers back up after they had basically declined to 50 % of what they were in 1991 And so now we’re seeing some unfortunate changes and it’s going to be all the more important and you know, and the reality about abortion pill reversal, while it’s not a, it’s not preferable to some, to a woman having never taken the chemical abortion, it’s certainly, it ought to be something that should be her right to choose and should be her ability to attempt to rescue that baby and she should not be held to having to fulfill an abortion she no longer consents to and yet the argument from the other side is to make her almost force her either out of ignorance or some of the doctors that if she’s if she’s taking the abortion pill and then regretted it and then has reached out back to the abortionist they say don’t know you have to complete this and that is. That’s just unfortunate and unconscionable.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah and I feel like whether the one you know, I think the number is 60 ish % of those who go through the APR regiment will, you know, the baby will be will survive with no added birth defects based on whether it’s taken, you know based on whether it’s taken through the muscles or orally like that’s the % difference but then when it comes to the woman who does, you know, the baby doesn’t survive i feel like she’s doing something so even for her it’s better to try than to not try. And for the woman who does try and has, you know, the baby survives. You know, obviously there is blessing and good things from life. But for the woman who you know who with the baby doesn’t survive, I feel like she will. She’ll have a She can at least say that she tried, even though it didn’t turn out in a positive.

Jor-El Godsey :

Way i had that very experience with a nurse who was actually a nurse on the hotline and on the APR hotline when we first were encountering it and she stopped we were talking about, well, I said well I was like, well it’s unfortunately it’s only 64 % effective or something like that and she stopped me. She said Terrell, don’t you don’t you dismiss what you give her in the ability to try to reverse something that she had done herself so it’s really allowing her in a sense to redeem the action even though it’s ultimately unsuccessful it give it gives her that as something that she can carry that I at least made the effort to reverse something that I had unfortunately stepped into to begin with so I think you’re right, Jacob. I think that is something that should not be minimized and should be also clearly a part of it we wish of course the successes were higher and maybe if we could actually get the medical community on our side and to help begin researching this more clearly and more specifically then we might see that percentage even improve. But unfortunately it’s that we’ve we have some research that has been attempted to get clearances from various entities like internal review boards and even the FDA has kind of slow walked some things and not provided full agreement or sign off so that we could conduct that research and again, those things can’t be anything less but politically motivated.

Speaker 1 :

Unfortunately the 1st place that I heard about APR was at it was that Sister Paula’s Internationalized Services Advanced Training Institute. And I remember seeing Nurse Debbie at the booth and I think the next year they had Doctor George Delgado but Emmer’s talking to her and i just like, i had no clue as to what she was really saying like it did not make sense like you can reverse an abortion i really am not. I’m not I’m not tracking and it took me like 6 months after that training institute to like it finally, like a bell or a light bulb went off and I’m like, oh, oh, I finally get it. So I called her and said, hey, I want to help you with your website and so we ended up, you know, offering some donation services and we worked with them for, I think it was about, I want to say, like five years before Heartbeat really, you know, took the baton and, you know, with your team of amazing team to, you know, taking it to the next level. But yeah, it was what an amazing group i mean, Doctor George Delgado, Nurse Debbie and several nurses who are willing to take the call for that for their hotline, working through Culture of Life, Family Services and just what an amazing group there out of San Diego to start, you know, start that network and then to be able to hand it off to Heartbeat to take it to, you know, a larger, a larger audience.

Jor-El Godsey :

Well, that was, that’s one of those historical moments in my mind. You know, Stanley, we’re actually we’re in California that year with our conference as only God could have planned because we’re just not that bright to know what we’re doing, going to be doing three and four years ahead, these major changes that he’s going to, that he’s going to orchestrate. So it was a real blessing to be in California that year and to kind of take the keys to the car, so to speak, and actually began answering the calls on option line at that very same time. And but we learned a lot and the team that was Abortion Pill Reversal Network at that time it was a small but mighty team of all volunteers i mean mostly and we’ve been able to now we have more than 40 nurses that are a part of that. We have about half dozen that are full time with Heartbeat who are empowered to that there that we have multiple like nurse managers that takes that take weeks at a time of being shift managers. So we we’ve been able to grow that because it needs to be grown and it needs to be bigger because the numbers are getting bigger if we’re now talking three hundred and fifty thousand four hundred thousand chemical abortions, we know that there are many that are experiencing that regret. And unfortunately we’ve had some other kind of unsavory actions towards abortion pill reversal. Big tech has joined in on this. Google began censoring ads for Abortion Pill Reversal back in September of 2021 and to this date is still not kind of released that so we know that that’s affecting our call volume significantly it dropped by more than 2/3 as much as 3/4 when they when they enacted that the good news is that, you know, women are still finding help and it’s taking them hard a longer route. But women are still able to find help. They can still reach our website they can still find us maybe through some other marketing opportunities but there are abortion pill reversals happening every single day at Heartbeat we we’ve seen, continue to see women seek that help. And you know most of them, I think most of them, 75 % of them are contacting us inside that first 24 hours. We only have 72 hours for the effectiveness otherwise, yeah, it drops the effect of the abortion pill is too strong by that time and so, but if we can get to her quickly and that’s the good news is that whatever it is that that’s causing her heart and mind to shift just to say I no longer want this abortion it’s happening quickly and we’re able to get her to that help very quickly and only a matter of hours in most cases.

Peggy Hartshorn :

And maybe it maybe it would be good if you have anybody listening who is wondering how does this happen like you did you know but that the abortion pill is really A2 pill regime regimen and the first pill cuts off the progesterone, it’s an anti progesterone before the second pill then the woman takes it home generally causes contractions to start all right so if we can start progesterone treatment in the first day or so and reverse the effect of that first pill, then the baby can be saved. And so progesterone as most women now, is a very healthy, wonderful hormone that’s been also used to stop miscarriages ever since the nineteen fifties. So why the medical profession would call this junk science is just ridiculous and.

Jor-El Godsey :

They even tried to even try to say progesterone is bad for her, but she makes progesterone herself like that.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Exactly it doesn’t make sense when you’re pregnant, you have more and more progesterone. All right, So it’s a very healthy hormone for pregnant women so yeah, but, you know, isn’t it sad today, Jacob, that it’s so hard to get the truth out there? You know things that should be so self-evident things that are common sensical, people will just say the opposite and a lot of people don’t bother to really think it through. So there’s a lot of ignorance and people who sometimes it’s not just ignorance, it’s people just don’t really want to know. They don’t really want to know the facts. So it’s very hard for us to get the truth out so thank you for your program that’s that helps to do that.

Speaker 1 :

And with the with Doctor George Delgado discovering this and then the I forget the name of the previous Doctor two years earlier, having that Doctor Harrison having that same response to someone saying how can I reverse this And having two Doctors independently coming up with you know a way to reverse just as yeah. And it’s essentially I think it boils down to spiritual attack and this is a battle over life and it’s a spiritual battlefield and that’s not that not that that’s simple or anything but I feel like that’s the maybe that explains why there is opposition or explains why people wouldn’t you know be a fan of something just so obviously a good and healthy idea. I mean i want the only reason why I can explain why someone wouldn’t be on a fan of this would be it’s spiritual warfare and they’re you know opposing on the opposing team perhaps i’m not sure.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Well, I have. I mean the idea that once you’re once you under, once God moves you, once you are open to the truth, the scales fall from your eyes i love that image the scales fall. So some people have those scales they’re looking right at the truth, but they don’t see it. So prayer, of course, is our main weapon, if you want to call it that, in the battle that we’re in and that has always been a big part of heartbeat another wonderful chapter is about how we try to make Christ the center of everything. You should notice that I’m sure at our conferences too, Jacob.

Speaker 1 :

Right yes. And there’s been a lot of benefits from that being weaved in, I remember and with NIFLA.

Jor-El Godsey :

What’s her last?

Peggy Hartshorn :

O’connor and o’connor o’connor, I’m sorry,

Speaker 1 :

Yes and how she, I remember her having that you know essentially you know sharing that clinics you know pricing clinics need to go medical as being as she has probably given that talk probably a dozen times at heartbeat conferences talking about going you know making your clinic having that religious language weaved into the bylaws into your founding document so that you have religious freedom and hiring people based on belief in order to have that religious freedom of hiring someone who believes certain things that are good.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Thank goodness we live in a country where we still have freedom of religion and it’s been being upheld but we have to pray that continues because we’re one of the few countries in the world where that’s possible. Jor-El mentioned some of the attacks on abortion pill rescue and in Ireland and England apparently Jor-El, as I understand the National Health Service, will not recognize any conscience rights of any doctors who want to perform abortion pill rescue. They just won’t let them do it. You know, if you’re asked, you can’t do it, otherwise you lose your job. So there is no freedom of religion in the way that they practice medicine. And so we have to be very thankful that we still have that in this country, but it’s under attack as well.

Speaker 1 :

I also like the case that you made in the book about how we have, I think you said 3000 clinics and appraising clinics in the US and I think you said there’s about 2000 and something across the globe outside of the US And how 98 % of the of the funds are spent on these 2 % and 2 % of the funds are spent on the clinics outside of the US when it or when it comes to the need outside of the US Can you speak of that Terrell or?

Jor-El Godsey :

Yeah, actually. So that was a broader statement that I was, I borrowed for some from others it wasn’t necessarily pregnancy help center specific it was more about the pro-life funds that are raised and the amount of the problem it was if you just look at just easy round numbers, imagine you know we have about a million abortions a year in the US but they’re globally there are 50 million, right so that means we only have 2 % of the global number of abortions. But when you when you look at funding of if we just lump all of the pro-life groups together and then what we know of the pro-life groups that outside of their funding. Then we then we get that 98 % of the funding for pro-life causes is directed at the US which is two ninety eight percent % the funding is directed at 2 % of the abortion problem. So it it’s it shows that there’s a lot of work that can be done outside the US we need to do all that we’re doing but we need to do more internationally and there’s a lot of opportunity to work in that area and there are our friends we have friends all over the globe now in 84 countries where they are desperate to do more for their own community for their own people. But they don’t they lack what we have here in the US which is maybe a an especially stable and charitable economy for instance. You know, there are lots of countries that are still developing countries and. Don’t have the economic power and strength that we do and or do they have the kind of charitable history that has been a blessing of the United States in particular. And so that which is in our law, we know, you know, we we’re very familiar with this idea of tax deductible, you know, benefits from the IRS and I don’t think that lives in that same way and to that same degree in other parts of the of the world. So there’s much to do there’s a lot of opportunity there’s more to do here in the US, and we’ve already talked about that on a previous podcast, but there’s also more to be done internationally, and I That’s why it’s a pleasure and a privilege to be part of Heartbeat International, which is really working to unify and advance the pregnancy help community worldwide.

Speaker 1 :

In the book you there’s a mention of work being done in Ukraine and I believe this was written probably months before the war in Ukraine was taking place that seems like, yeah, it just seems like there was a lot being done there and now I feel yeah, what how do you reflect on the work being done in Ukraine at this at this time what how does that sound to you or look to you?

Jor-El Godsey :

Well it’s very difficult we’ve been keeping track of that as best we can we know most of our friends have escaped harm at this point that there what we what those that we were in connection with have had to leave the country and we know that they some of them have been able to turn around and help moms and children that were or pregnant moms that had to leave the country for fear of being in harm’s way but still had need and now if their pregnancy was a crisis before it’s certainly a crisis and being displaced. So we’re seeing that happening. There is some recent affiliates of heartbeat had have multiple locations in the Ukraine and then one location in Poland. Well the one location in Poland is now being like the hub of help for those that are leaving the Ukraine and because of the connections there it’s been a very positive opportunity to help them and so we’ve been able to do that and yet what we also know because the other thing that I think the for us for me anyway the writing the book it helps me to have a longer view of things and So what we can see that will come about at some point that this the fighting will end we pray it sooner rather than later. We pray that cooler heads prevail and that the Ukrainians will be allowed to have their own home and their own country and continue to be the community that they desire to be, which means that they’ll have future pregnancies and future things that they’ll do. So we hope that there will be an opportunity to rebuild and to restore what certainly has been hopefully only temporarily disrupted. But pregnancy help will be necessary once the active fighting is over and the rebuilding begins.

Speaker 1 :

Well and I like the tagline of the book underneath the power of princely help it says the 1st 50 years. And so I feel like that speaks to the you know the need for this to continue on for decades as or until Jesus comes back as this is a ongoing effort and as you as the international need is great. You know, there’s no, yeah, hopefully the call I guess is for more people to join the work, more people to join the teams and to start new pregnancy clinics and countries that are, well, that have only a few or none and to start more pregnancy clinics and highly populated cities that are. Yeah, out. Yeah, there’s this where there’s great need perhaps right.

Jor-El Godsey :

Yeah that that’s what we have seen have happened in the US and that needs to happen at that same pace and rate we have about i did a study, we have about four pregnancy help centers per every half million people in the US the so four point something 4 3, the next closest country to us is Italy which has just over 1 and then after that it’s Zambia and then everything else drops off from there and so there’s a lot of room for opportunity and they need the same kind of energy and effort applied in those other countries. Those babies are just as important as American babies and we need to make sure that we’re doing everything we can to help them to do that is difficult because it requires a lot of support, it requires a lot of people it requires really the their own country to rise up and do that and that’s happening it’s just not happening anywhere near as fast as we would want it to. But we are grateful for those champions that really stand against, buck their own culture and stand for life in the midst of some very challenging environments and.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Let me say though, I think one of the wonderful things that Heartbeat does, and we’ve been doing it for probably 30 years if not more, bringing some of these international leaders every year on scholarship to the Heartbeat conference and letting them make friends with other pregnancy centers that will then help support and pray for them. And to give them the training and the encouragement, the mentorship they need, you know, to really keep going in their countries and do the maximum that they can and believe me, they are so inspired by America i mean sometimes we are, we get down on our country, we get aggravated at the at the type of laws that we have. You know, we get frustrated that it’s taken so long to reverse Roe V Wade. But these countries, many of them just derive a lot of hope from seeing what we’re doing in the United States and from knowing that there is a country in the world where abortion is still alive as a controversial issue, you know, where Christians are standing up and really fighting against it and where we have the opportunity, you know, to turn back the clock on abortion. And so that’s so inspirational to them. So I think even though it does seem unfair that we’re spending so many pro-life dollars here in the US versus overseas, what we are doing and what we’ve accomplished here over the over the 1st 50 years with God’s help and guidance is it is a light to the rest of the world it does inspire them. You know that it is possible to stand for life, to have a strong Christian voice, to make an impact on the laws in your country. And even if you’re not making an impact in the laws to change the culture one person at a time, you know, through, like you say, providing God’s love in the pregnancy centers and they are really encouraged by what God’s doing here so we’re happy to share with them as much as we can.

Speaker 1 :

Yeah. So it feels like Heartbeat is exporting the creativity and wisdom of this pro-life group here in the US bringing these ideas to other communities outside of the US And one of one of the Alliance for Life in Missouri, I believe, Marsha Middleton, who I’ve seen many times at the Heartbeat conferences over the last four five or so years. They’ve had a fundraiser every year for, I believe it was Zimbabwe and I think it was Sean Dickerson who jumped in a freezing cold pool for part of this fundraiser last.

Peggy Hartshorn :

At the last.

Speaker 1 :

Conference but anyways all I have to say is like you know, essentially if they would raise this amount of money, he had to jump in the pool and there was a really good, you know, raising of money. But I’m pretty sure that all started at a heartbeat conference because I don’t think Alliance for Life Missouri would have made that connection i mean, i can’t really imagine them making that connection anywhere but at a heartbeat conference as you are inviting the, you know, the international leaders and international people to your conference and then that allows for people like Marsha Middleton to strike up a relationship and then that’s been able to continue for the last four to five plus years with fundraising happening every year. And i pitched in i wanted to see Sean jump in the pool.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Good and see, Only in America would we raise money that way. The International saw that if they sent a video over there, they ‘d, say oh my, goodness those crazy americans, that they might try it. They might try it the next time themselves.

Jor-El Godsey :

There’s actually several of those stories that are like that are some of them are many years along where the center not so much the fundraiser part, but just saw it as a an extension of themselves some of the pregnancy help organizations in the US will tithe some portion of their fundraising with the idea of sewing into these countries and these communities that are in great need. And so it’s really, it’s really fun to be a part of that and to know of those relationships in some cases they’ve actually traveled to be in those countries taking a team i know, I know some that have gone to Africa, others that have gone to Europe and having a chance to meet not only will they help them when they come to the US or visit with them when they’re at Harpy Conference, but some have been able to even travel and treat it like a missions trip and bless them and in their country as well so it is fun, Jacob, to see those relationships kind of I can see them forming and then it’s fun then, you know, years later to realize like oh wow, this is going on and this has been going on since that moment. You know, that’s our own experience. You know, one of our very special long term relationships with is with Edward and Barbara Mwanza from Zambia and that all came about from a their very first conference was 1998 and from that they decided to open a pregnancy center which they did and then they decided to that there wasn’t enough to have one there should be others and now after serving in that for more than 30 years they have a network of pregnancy center affiliates all across central and Southern Africa about 180 different pregnancy centers and outreaches They they’re constantly that they formed an organization called the Association for Life of Africa and are working very diligently to continue to spread the word across Africa so who you never know what can happen at a heartbeat conference and how that kind of God moment occurs can occur there it can occur anywhere because I believe that this is part of God’s heart and he wants to do it and wants to see it done everywhere in the in the world.

Speaker 1 :

So I know that we probably have had about an hour of talking, so I probably should wrap things up. Before I do, I want to just point out for anyone who’s listening, when you get the chance to go to a heartbeat conference there at the beginning of the conference there’s probably going to be an A time for the internationals to share and I would really encourage you to make sure that you attend that international where you get to hear reports from different people from across the globe share stories of you know what’s going on in their country and in their area. As you will find that you know these stories are amazing and well worth hearing and pondering and being aware of these stories will give you the chance possibly to pray, possibly to get involved or to at least be encouraged as there are so many amazing stories across the globe. As you know, these people are working in much harder circumstances than in the US and you know very often where they are outnumbered they are you know, but God is at work and they will, they share stories and so anyway I was, I just think that international time when you provide that space for people to share is just been remarkable and just very encouraging.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Thank you. Thank you for.

Jor-El Godsey :

That well, we always have a parade of nations where we get to celebrate the nations and their work and they also several of them bring items that we would find interesting as Americans that bring some of their things that are crafts from their own country and we have those in the exhibit hall as well so it’s always fun to get to visit with them and understand the really the type of mission that they’re doing in their area and to celebrate them and to just be blessed by how God is moving in their hearts as He does in ours.

Speaker 1 :

Well, thank you Peggy thank you Jor-El for being on this podcast thank.

Peggy Hartshorn :

You thank you so much for having us it’s been fun talking.

Speaker 1 :

Awesome. All right well, I think that’ll be a wrap. And thank you so much. I think this was really good and it’s just exciting to see all you hear all the stories. Yeah, I feel like the number of people in the book represent just like this, the tip of the iceberg when it comes to all the stories that are available. And it’s so good that, you know, for people to sort of just see that God has got a bazillion fingerprints in this movement.

Peggy Hartshorn :

I love, I love the way you really have grasped the book. I mean, it’s wonderful, Jacob. I just hope we’ve got other readers out there who got as much out of it as you do of course, partly that was because you’ve also experienced the conference you know that this is true, and you know that you’re just getting little bits of what you’ve experienced there. So thanks for your help spreading the word.

Speaker 1 :

Like when you mentioned like there’s like this list of names and like when I just see like John Tabor’s name, like there could be a book about John Tabor or John Enzor or Kirk Kirk Walden i mean there’s this, like there’s so much there with so many people who are just complete, you know, servant leaders when it comes to how they interact with people and their gifting for being encouragement and influencing others in a positive way, it’s huge.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Yeah, it is. Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 :

Thank you have a wonderful thank.

Peggy Hartshorn :

You will we see you at the conference this year?

Speaker 1 :

Yes, I’ll be there solo oK.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Ok, I’ll be there.

Speaker 1 :

Thank you. Bye, Jerrell.

Jor-El Godsey :

Bye thank you.

Peggy Hartshorn :

Bye bye