The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 16 with Dr. Donna Harrison | Talking About Abortion Pills

The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast | Episode 16 with Dr. Donna Harrison | Talking About Abortion Pills
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The Controversy Surrounding Mifepristone: Examining the Complications and Ethical Concerns

Mifepristone, also known as Mifeprex, is a drug commonly used for medical abortions. However, its usage has sparked controversy due to its potential complications and ethical implications. In this blog post, we will delve into the various concerns surrounding Mifepristone and shed light on the need for informed decision-making in reproductive healthcare.

Summary

This is Jacob Barr, and in a recent episode of the Pro-Life Team Podcast, I had an in-depth conversation with Dr. Donna Harrison, CEO of the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. We discussed the serious issues surrounding “do-it-yourself” abortions, specifically focusing on drugs like Mifepristone and Misoprostol. Dr. Harrison highlighted the grave risks these drugs pose to women, particularly when taken without proper medical supervision.

She explained how Mifepristone works by blocking progesterone, potentially leading to severe bleeding due to the drug’s interference with the uterus’s ability to contract. Misoprostol, on the other hand, causes the uterus to contract, expelling the fetus. Dr. Harrison stressed the dangers of using these drugs, especially in later stages of pregnancy, and the lack of systematic tracking of complications from such drug-induced abortions. Many women, she noted, end up in emergency rooms without the abortion providers being aware, leading to a significant underestimation of the risks involved.

We also delved into the legal aspects, discussing how the FDA’s oversight is often influenced by political pressures, which has led to the approval and widespread availability of these abortion drugs. Dr. Harrison expressed deep concern over the misinformation provided to women about the safety of these drugs and the psychological trauma many women endure when they realize the reality of the process.

The conversation also touched upon the Hippocratic Oath and its significance in the medical profession. Dr. Harrison lamented the decline in adherence to this oath, which explicitly prohibits actions like abortion and euthanasia. She discussed how the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists is encouraging medical professionals to reaffirm or take the Hippocratic Oath, emphasizing its importance in upholding ethical medical practices that value human life.

#ProLifePodcast, #MedicalEthics, #DoItYourselfAbortions, #WomenHealthRisks, #FDAOversight, #HippocraticOath, #EthicalMedicine, #ProtectingUnborn, #PatientSafety, #HealthcareIntegrity

Transcript

The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

Jacob Barr :

Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m here with Donna and we’re going to be talking about the abortion pill, the the first pill, the second pill, and when the second pill is used as the only pill, we’re also going to be going over the Hippocratic Oath and how that can be brought back in in today’s world. So, so Donna, so I would, I would like for you to introduce yourself in a way that would make sense to executive directors and and nurse essentially medical team leaders at pricing clinics across the country how would you introduce yourself to that that group?

Donna Harrison :

Ok, I’m I’m Doctor Donna Harrison i’m a board certified obstetrician gynecologist and I’m the the CEO of the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. And we were we have about 7000 members including pregnancy care center directors and pregnancy care centers themselves as organizational members and we exist to equip you to be able to make an evidence based defense for both the pregnant woman and her unborn child. So we combed the peer reviewed medical literature and let you know how abortion effects women. And it’s a it’s a scientific argument.

Jacob Barr :

To defend women because abortion really hurts women And and then specifically I wanted to talk to you today about the. I’m not sure if I would call it a well I’m not sure what what adjective to use but the do it yourself abortion problems that exist in the world and then some. And also, can you explain, Well, maybe we should start by trying to describe the, you know, describe the where do it yourself abortions exist and then they may describe like what it is. And then we can talk a little bit about more ideas regarding do it yourself at home abortions.

Donna Harrison :

Ok, well, the do it yourself abortion is the end game of the abortion industry. And right now the drugs used for do it yourself abortion are two most commonly used one is Mythoprex. Which is a a progesterone blocker and the other is misoprostol which is site attack. So with the Methoprex, do it yourself abortion regimen you take methoprex and then you follow that by misoprostol with the misoprostol do it yourself abortion regimen you take just misoprostol alone large doses so those are unfortunately currently available online at about over 75 different websites. Or a woman can log in without any physical exam, without any prescription and access methoprex. But what’s even worse is that any pimp can do that as well and any abusive boyfriend. And so there’s when you talk about do it yourself, abortion, the consequences are horrendous.

Jacob Barr :

So let me jump into one of the scenarios so what happens if a woman is far along in her pregnancy and she goes for the end game piece where that’s the second pill as the only pill? What what what happens in that scenario?

Donna Harrison :

Well, misoprostol, which is side attack, which is the second pill that causes the uterus to contract so she will put herself into labor and sometimes the baby dies in that process and sometimes the baby doesn’t. And a lot of times the placental tissue doesn’t separate and so she ends up with massive hemorrhage. So this is a really dangerous thing for a woman to do late in pregnancy.

Jacob Barr :

Ok, that’s so. And where do most of these women end up experiencing this? You know, is this usually in their home, in their, in their bathroom by themselves like, how does you know do we have any idea of, you know, you know, the the added danger of them not having essentially doing it by themselves and not doing it in a medical facility with the ability to get help from medical professionals? Well, that’s that’s kind of a complicated.

Donna Harrison :

Question, and I’ll tell you why. The information that we have on the complications from Methoprex abortion is very poor because there’s no systematic tracking of it. Other than what the manufacturer of mythoprex wants to tell the FDA, that’s the only systematic tracking and it’s a vast underestimation because most women who have complications from a drug induced abortion do not go back to their abortion provider. Most of them go to the emergency room so the abortion provider has very little idea of what complications actually exist and so the abortion industry has very little idea and most of the papers published. About abortion complications are published by the abortion industry, so you can see how it’s been a don’t ask, don’t tell situation as far as abortion complications, what we do know is that of women who experience a a drug abuse abortion that it that at least at least four times more women have complications than a woman than a woman who has a surgical abortion at a similar gestational age. The further along she is in pregnancy, the higher the complications and that’s because drug induced abortion becomes less and less effective the further and further you are in pregnancy. So for example, at six weeks, seven weeks gestation very early and that’s three weeks after she misses her period. At that point in time, she has, you know, she’s likely, she’s about 95 % likely to complete that abortion. But when you get to 13 weeks and 14 weeks, almost 30 % of women hemorrhage and require emergency surgery so it’s it’s dangerous and the further along in pregnancy, the more dangerous. And what’s even worse is that most women who become well, of women who become pregnant, half of them do not have an accurate idea of how far along in pregnancy they are. So we know from studying. Women who want to keep their pregnancies that when you do that first trimester ultrasound, about half the time you have to change the due date because the ultrasound is so far off from what the woman thinks. So with the the abortion industry pushing for complete demedicalization, then what we’re gonna have is we’re gonna have women who are much further along in pregnancy than they think they are, and they’re gonna hemorrhage and if they don’t have access to an emergency room. That hemorrhage could lead to death.

Jacob Barr :

So can you tell me what exactly does hemorrhaging mean can you describe like I’m. I’m not familiar with what that is.

Donna Harrison :

Ok, Hemorrhaging is when you bleed. So you’re in a in a term pregnancy, you’re you can lose your entire blood volume in 5 minutes. Ok. So when you deliver, it’s really important that you deliver in a place that’s safe when you are in? When you use a drug induced abortion, the chemical Mifoprax actually keeps your uterus from contracting down for the the blood vessels from contracting. So it chemically keeps you from being able to stop the flow of blood after you deliver the baby. And that’s why Mifoprax is so dangerous later in the pregnancy, because Mifoprax is not as effective in separating the tissue and. When, even when it does, your uterus doesn’t clamp down as well. So hemorrhaging looks like looks like one woman whose adverse event I I reviewed who had to have 10 units of blood because she was bleeding so much. And others who who lost over half their blood volume and the only reason they lived is because they were close enough to an emergency room to make it. But had they been out in the rural area, which is where? The abortion drugs are being pushed. Then they would have died if they couldn’t have reached the emergency room in time to get transfused, they would have died.

Jacob Barr :

So so Methoprex essentially creates it so someone’s more likely to bleed more based on one of the results of taking that Methoprex.

Donna Harrison :

Correct, based on one of the things that Methoprex does in the body. One of the things that it does is it interferes with the ability. Of the tiny blood vessels in the uterus, which in pregnancy are not so tiny, interferes with the ability of those blood vessels to contract and stop bleeding.

Jacob Barr :

So if someone had a miscarriage, would that essentially be less dangerous to them than mifeprix because they essentially maintain that ability to stop the bleeding or how would you compare a miscarriage experience, maybe to a person that took mifeprix?

Donna Harrison :

Well, actually it’s a very interesting question because there was a push to use mythoprex and musoprostol in the management of spontaneous miscarriage. And what they found was, yes, it does cause the tissue to pass, but the women who had mythoprex had higher bleeding than women who didn’t. Ok, So it it has been studied and mythoprex does cause an increase in bleeding in those women.

Jacob Barr :

So is Mythoprex like as the only regiment or pill? Is that is that legal in the United States?

Donna Harrison :

Yes, Mythoprex was approved for the purpose of abortion in 2000 and that in and of itself was a whole nother podcast. But here we have in 2000 the FDA approving a drug that treats no disease and not only doing that, but approving it on a fast track. Even though it’s worse, it’s outcome is worse. Than surgical abortion so like I said that’s a whole nother podcast, but yes it is it is legal the FDA did put at that time of approval the FDA did put some restrictions on the use of the drug because FDA has very little ability to control how a drug is used after it grants approval. But one of the few ways it can control somewhat how a drug is used is by something called the REMS the risk. Evaluation Mitigation Strategy. Currently the REMS is under review and what is the what is the REMS? The REMS is the Risk Evaluation Mitigation Strategy it’s the the criteria that the FDA puts on a drug as to how it can be used after it’s approved. So the REMS has required that a patient be seen by a doctor would have thought. Before getting Methoprex why? Because a doctor is supposed to tell the patient how far along she is supposed to find out whether the pregnancy is in her room or in her tube. If it’s in her tube, it’s an ectopic pregnancy. And the symptoms that she’ll experience with a Methoprex abortion, the pain, the bleeding, are exactly the same symptoms as a rupturing ectopic pregnancy. And some women have died. Because when they called the clinic with their pain and their bleeding, they were told all this is normal. This is part of the Mifoprex abortion and then they bled to death at home because the ectopic pregnancy ruptured inside. And they the, the person who prescribed, never ruled out the ectopic pregnancy. So a doctor is supposed to rule out an ectopic pregnancy, supposed to tell a woman exactly how far along she is why? Because as her gestational as the pregnancy gets further and further along.

Jacob Barr :

Her risk increases, so there’s no way that you can give an accurate, informed consent to this woman prior to Methoprex unless you know exactly how far along she is so.

Donna Harrison :

Yeah, and and they were supposed to test for Rhogam for for RH for a blood type that is RH negative. And if the woman has an RH negative blood type, she was supposed to receive something called RHOGAM, which will prevent her from having complications in subsequent pregnancies. All of those things were supposed to happen. The Rems required the in person doctor visit. Now the abortion industry says we don’t want an in person doctor visit because basically the abortion industry wants this drug available without any kind of medical supervision why? Well, one reason is Planned Parenthood. The Population Council received the patent to manufacture and distribute Nifeprex. Which they then created a shell company called Danco, which has assets in the Cayman Islands, so it can’t be sued. And so, so Planned Parenthood Population Council benefit from the sale of Methoprex and it’s sure a lot cheaper. You don’t have to worry about those pesky physicians. Sure, a lot cheaper to just be able to distribute this drug and get paid for it than to actually do medical care for women. So it’s a it’s a huge problem as far as women’s safety goes and it is it is something that would the the care that are given to abortion patients are is something that would be medical malpractice in other aspects of gynecology.

Jacob Barr :

Wow, I’ve got so many questions.

Donna Harrison :

Ok, I’ll slow down.

Jacob Barr :

No, no, no it’s really good i mean I I honestly I didn’t realize that there was I I didn’t quite know where where this conversation was going to go but this is a this is really helpful. So I’m going to, I’m going to ask the the question based on what you last said which is so based on Planned Parenthood’s the company that they created to and they have the patent on Mythoprix. So they so they’re the only provider of Mythoprix? Or do they license this to other groups to be able to also use or just through their Danco Cayman Island company primarily only?

Donna Harrison :

So, so back in 2000 actually in the late nineties the, manufacture of the drug result cloth in France was told to bring the drug to the United States and they said we’re not going to do it because the liability is too high in the US medical system. So they gave without cost or maybe a dollar, they gave the right to manufacture and distribute to the population council slash Planned Parenthood. They had parenthood and Population Council didn’t want the liability either. So they created a shell company called Danco. Danco really doesn’t manufacture anything. So they Danco contracted with Walling Pharmaceuticals in China, and at that time, Walling Pharmaceuticals was under censure by the FDA for shoddy drug manufacturing. But that’s where Danco originally got the Methoprex now. Whether or not they currently still use walling pharmaceuticals, I don’t know that’s very shrouded in secrecy, but that’s how we started. So received the approval from FDA to supply a generic Methoprex. But what you have to understand with generic drugs is a generic drug is a drug where at least 85 % of the pills have at least 85 % of the. Active ingredient. So the quality of these drugs is unknown. What’s even more concerning is that these drugs are being mailed from India and China and wherever in the UK being mailed overseas to some people who buy them online. And there was one study that was done where the the drugs are coming in with broken blister packages and. Some of the drugs had basically very little active ingredient in them, no quality control at all. And so women are really risking their lives when they use these drugs without any quality control. They’re risking their lives when they use Nifoprex anyway. But especially the online unsupervised, unregulated drugs that are now available online are particularly dangerous.

Jacob Barr :

Wow i I so this is a lot of really good information once again, I really appreciate you sharing so generic drugs only are required to have 85 %, but that’s eight that’s required probably here in the US, but in other countries I don’t think there would be any who would be this, who would be the authoritative group who would maintain that they have, you know, 85 %?

Donna Harrison :

Yeah, I don’t know it would probably depend on the country of origin.

Jacob Barr :

Ok. When when when something is shipped from 1 country with a different medical leadership or you know, medical oversight to a different country that that seems like a a loophole in order to get, you know, drugs that wouldn’t match that country’s medical standard.

Donna Harrison :

That’s a very big loophole and women are paying for it with their lives.

Jacob Barr :

So I want to back up a little bit back to a a a topic pregnancy and how that matches some of the the bleeding or the experience that someone might have with a mythoprex or or a medical abortion. So you said that there’s not a way to tell the difference between, I mean, without having a medical professional do an ultrasound, if someone’s doing a do it yourself at home, abortion is there.

Donna Harrison :

I mean, it sounds like those are very similar experiences where it could be the the the the do it yourself abortion or it could be an ectopic pregnancy and if it ends up being an ectopic pregnancy, that would essentially mean that the woman’s life is now in grave danger. You are right. That’s exactly right, because without an ultrasound at the early gestational ages, you don’t know whether the pregnancy is in the womb or in a woman’s tube and about 3 out of 100 pregnancies will be in a woman’s tube. You can’t always tell by risk factors. Sometimes a woman doesn’t seem to have any risk factors.

Jacob Barr :

So three out of 100 seems like quite a bit like to me that I mean 3 %. I mean, if I made three half court shots at a basketball game, I would, I would think that 3 % would be pretty fun. But the risk, but the risk in one’s life at 3 % of the time like that seems like a very high number to to to let through and not have the oversight in these.

Donna Harrison :

What does the FDA say about medical, you know this, do it yourself abortion and a 3 % risk of ectopic pregnancy and how that is not catchable unless it’s brought in to have an ultrasound and for medical professionals to look at the data. Well, the original. The original back in 2000 The original FDA requirements were for an ultrasound prior to. Administering Mithoprex and then someone from the abortion industry got on the FDA Advisory Council and the she was employed by the FDA and all of a sudden that requirement disappeared magically over a three month period of time so that no ultrasound was required. What you have to understand about the FDA unfortunately is the FDA is under the HHS and the HHS is under the administration in power, so. Originally the FDA was informed by Bill Clinton that they will approve Nifikrex. Ok, so they were directly they they had a direct directive from the president that they would approve this drug way back in 96 So the FDA is not what I wish it were, which is an independent objective scientific body looking out for the health of women. The FDA is unfortunately very permeable to political pressure and Methoprex is a prime example of the permeability of the FDA to political pressure.

Jacob Barr :

Is it? Wow there’s just so much so under the with Harris as the vice president, and based on her track record in California and, you know, being pro, pro, pro abortion, it seems like that political pressure is currently going to maintain Methoprex as being. Available in the US or is it is it? Is it currently legal to have Mythoprex or is it currently illegal or is it currently being done beyond the purview of the FDA because it’s being shipped for other countries like where does mythoprex currently come from As the do it yourself solution that women, women are choosing or taking on.

Donna Harrison :

So the answer to your question is yes, yes and yes. Ok, it is currently legal in the United States for women to be prescribed Mifoprex. It is currently legal for doctors to use Mifoprex outside of the FDA guidelines. It would be legal for FDA to find those doctors, but the FDA doesn’t do that, even though it would have the ability to find at least the manufacturer for allowing it but the FDA has never actually enforced anything and currently the FDA is reconsidering the restrictions altogether. So all of those things are legal, but there’s lots of things that are legal that are pretty dangerous and pretty unwise and the the Willy nilly use of a strong anti hormone drug like mythoprex is is pretty dangerous.

Jacob Barr :

Ok, so. So what What would what would be helpful to an executive director or a a a nurse or Doctor Who works with a pregnancy clinic what would be helpful to these people to know in regards to Mythoprix and and and I’m not sure what else they ask about that but what what what do you think would be most helpful? What what are a few things that may that may they would they should know and understand.

Donna Harrison :

So one of the most important things for any pregnancy care center to understand and and to be prepared for is that very soon, within the next few months, it is likely that there will be no restrictions on Methoprex whatsoever. So what they’re likely to see is an increasing number of women who’ve never had an ultrasound, who don’t know how far along they are and who’ve taken Methoprex. It’s really gonna be important that every pregnancy care center become familiar with abortion pill reversal because the one thing that over the counter Mithoprax or mail order Mithoprax or or Mithoprax taken at home, the one thing that will happen is the women will change their mind. And they’ll change their mind in an increasing number because there won’t be under the same kind of high pressure in person pressuring that happens at the abortion clinic. So it will be important for pregnancy care centers to be prepared with ultrasound to be prepared with referrals to abortion pill reversal, which by the way is very safe. Progesterone has been used for 50 years in OBGYN. The infertility industry requires it in early pregnancy it it’s completely safe and that the information that’s being the misinformation that’s being bandied around about progesterone being dangerous is completely blinding snow to to be polite. So it’s important that you that every pregnancy care center can consider getting their medical director to be an abortion pill reversal provider. We can help you do that. You can go to our website which is a APLOG American Association of Pro-life over gins. Or you can go directly to the APR website Abortion Pill Reversal or Abortion Pill Rescue. And you can be put in contact with people that can help that pregnancy care center director to understand how to become an abortion pill reversal practitioner, which is quite simple and the administration of progesterone. And also answer any questions that they may have and I’m happy to also answer questions you can reach me at communications at aplog.org and we can send you information and on our website. You know the public website, which is a APLO G dot O R G. There’s a tab at the top that says Resources and under our practice bulletins, you can find information about abortion pill reversal the the medical scientific information that your director will want to know.

Jacob Barr :

So when it when it comes to Abortion Pill reversal, one thing that I’ve been trying to grapple with would be so it makes sense that it reverses i think it’s about 60 %. When someone takes the the first pill designed to starve the baby, that APR regiment can reverse that and essentially help provide, you know, substance substance to that unborn child to to not starve. But what what happens when someone takes that second pill as the only pill? Is there any? Any, any is what has anything been tried? To reverse that decision or is there anything that might be in the on the horizon being researched to try and reverse the Mythoprix abortion?

Donna Harrison :

Well, unfortunately, Musoprostyle works in a different way. That’s the second drug. Oh OK, so Musoprostyle. There is no known reversal for Musoprostyle because it works in a different way. The way Mythopristone works, the way Mythoprex works is that it binds to the progesterone receptor in the nucleus of a cell, and enough progesterone can enough natural progesterone can kick that methoprexol off so that the cell keeps functioning. The way the mesoprostol works is it causes the uterus to squeeze down, and so it works by cutting off the blood flow to the baby altogether. So there isn’t a really good way. There’s no drug that I know of that will keep the mesoprostol from constricting the uterus from from causing the uterus to clamp down. And and unfortunately that cutting off of the blood flow can cause malformations in the baby. How often depends on the gestational age that it’s taken at. But, you know, could be, you know, 7-8-9 % of the time, causing the kind of malformations you see when blood flow is cut off to the baby.

Jacob Barr :

So Mythoprix is the first out of the two pill regimen and then mister. Missaprystal is the second. So mister crystal is essentially expelling the baby it sounds like, well Mythoprix is the one that starves it and then Missaprystal would then expel or you know baby Cumming.

Donna Harrison :

That’s that’s yes, that’s essentially it. That’s essentially there’s there’s some overlap. Mythoprax, the first drug, makes the uterus more sensitive to misoprostal as well.

Jacob Barr :

So OK is is this, you know, with all the dangers it with it when it comes to that second pill of miss a crystal being used, has there been legal battles going on when it comes to the health of the woman being endangered with her taking it and the, you know, later months of pregnancy and the complexity of what happens then?

Donna Harrison :

Well, the legal battles that should ensue are that the woman who is given mesoprostol and has a complication should sue her abortionist for the complication. I mean this is this is an off label use of mesoprostol. And we know that mesoprostol, the further along that you are in pregnancy and you attempt a chemical abortion, the higher the risk. And women are not being told this they’re not being told about the risks of hemorrhaging, about the risk of tissue left inside. They’re not being told that mesoprosta itself can depress a woman’s immune system and make her more susceptible to a very fatal infection called Clostridium sordelii. Nifeprex can as well that’s where in the first four years, there were four women in California that died, 4 healthy, normal women that were dead two weeks after starting the abortion procedure because of a fatal infection with Clostridium sordelia, a a kind of bacteria that the rest of us can fight off all the time it’s in the soil. So this is not what women are being told they’re not being told about the risks, the risks of infection, the risk of hemorrhage, the the risk of tissue left inside and the risk of failure. They’re not being told that if they take it at 14 weeks, they got a 30 % chance of needing surgery. One out of three, OK, it’s an informed consent issue, and if a woman has a complication and she was not given appropriate informed consent, she ought to. She ought to look at challenging that.

Jacob Barr :

Is there a chance of hemorrhaging with the mister pistol that second pill is the only pill.

Donna Harrison :

The reason the risk of hemorrhage comes from the fact that the baby was never meant to be separated from the mom so the the blood vessels of the baby’s placenta and the blood vessels of the mom intertwine. And at that early gestational age, before about 20 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, they’re they’re really, really tightly intertwined and so separating them is incomplete and sometimes you have little pieces of tissue that are left. It isn’t until later in the pregnancy that there’s a separation layer that forms called metabucks layer that allows for a smoother separation of the mom and the baby when the baby was naturally supposed to come out. So when you take away the the the the baby and there’s it’s easy to get tissue from the placenta left inside and that’s the issue the issue is retained tissue because.

Jacob Barr :

What happens to that retained tissue if it stays in there does it? Does it create an infection what are the what are the chances of like what what can happen to it?

Donna Harrison :

Ok, So what can happen to it is that you can get an infection cause anytime you have dead tissue anywhere in the body, it can get infected. Even if it’s not infected though tissue that’s left inside can set up kind of a chronic inflammation because it’s not the mom’s tissue, it’s the baby’s tissue. Baby has a different tissue type than the mom does and when the progesterone levels from her pregnancy go down and she doesn’t have the same immune tolerance you know to to babies tissues that she had before so you can set up chronic inflammation and two things that we hate to see in OB, one of them is cervical damage from, you know, from using A from dilating the cervix. And the other thing we hate to see is inflammation, because both inflammation in the uterus and dilation of the womb at early gestational ages by AD and C, both of them can lead to premature labor, preterm birth in subsequent pregnancies. So there’s over 60 studies in the, I’m sorry, not sixty, 160 studies in the medical literature over the last five decades which have shown that women who have abortions, surgical abortions, and medical abortions that require surgical completion, that those women are at greatly increased risk of having premature labor in the subsequent pregnancy, and that premature labor is at the edge of viability 22 to 26 weeks, the preemies that barely make it so. Abortion is a set up for preterm birth and subsequent pregnancies and preterm birth that can result in significant complications for their future children or the inability to have children.

Jacob Barr :

So it doesn’t. The the When someone’s someone’s looking to get this, do these websites list out the the risks? Do planned does Planned Parenthood describe these lists like what? What’s the experience of these places that are providing this?

Donna Harrison :

It’s painful. Go to some of the websites, just Google it and go to it. They will say it’s 100 % safe. There are no complications. Women can do this as they want in the privacy of their home not saying that what that means is you’re on your own baby. If you have a complication, it’s your problem so so no, women are not being told what the complications are. And when any literature is quoted, they quote abortion industry studies which look at how many women come back to Planned Parenthood for the complications. Well, very few. And the reason is because a lot of abortion clinics, when you have a complication after hours, they’ll say thank you very much you have reached Women’s Center. If you have a problem, please go to your local emergency room. So the Women’s Center never knows that the woman has a complications. So it it is a miserable lack of informed consent that women are having prior to undergoing abortion.

Jacob Barr :

I was watching this video about Do it yourself abortions, and this group was promoting to go into the ER, but not to tell the medical team that you took mister crystal, rather just to say that you’re having a a miscarriage. Because it the treatment wouldn’t differ. But the the fact that you know women are being told, you know, this group was telling women to not be truthful with their medical team. First of all, that raises a concern of of getting bad treatment for what’s really going on when someone’s not being honest with what they did. But secondly, is there a danger when it comes to some, you know, miss a pistol versus a miscarriage i’m i’m guessing that there’s got to. It sounds like there could be some differences when it comes to how the body is treating these pieces involved here.

Donna Harrison :

Yes, there is a difference. And that’s because with a miscarriage, generally the baby has died a week or so before the woman actually starts bleeding. So the separation has already started, the separation of the placenta from the mom’s tissues. With a mythoprex abortion, that’s not true. It’s been hours to days, and so these blood vessels have not closed, so the risk of hemorrhage is much greater with the spontaneous miscarriage. The risk of getting a serious infection like Clostridium surgheliii is much higher with Nyphoprex than it is with spontaneous abortion. And again, if you, these women may not even know their gestational age. So it’s very hard for the ER doc to know whether they’re dealing with a very small placental bed or whether they’re doing dealing with a very large placental bed. Because by the time you’ve miscarried and you just have tissue left inside, it’s hard to tell what the gestational age was. And further, if the woman has coming in with an ectopic pregnancy and she said she’s passed the tissue at home, well, the ER doc may think this is a spontaneous miscarriage there’s nothing in the uterus, but they won’t necessarily think, Oh my goodness, maybe this is an ectopic pregnancy so and I’ve seen all of these things happen in the adverse event reports that I and my research team reviewed. We’ve seen all of these things happen. And and in addition there are women who come in to say they’ve spontaneously miscarried when or or or that they’re pregnant and miscarrying and there’s no evidence of a baby inside the womb so they undergo surgery because somebody thinks they might have an ectopic pregnancy. So that’s a completely unnecessary surgery because the woman lied. So all of this is happening, it’s it’s a really risky to her to not tell the truth to the doctor and give the doctor the ability to actually do the correct differential diagnosis.

Jacob Barr :

So I’ve got one more question I want to ask, at least SO. When someone someone’s pregnant and they take miss a crystal to expel the baby prematurely and they’re at home, probably by themselves in their bathroom thinking that the literature is true and it it’s going to be something that they can take care of with heavy bleeding, what happens when they deliver a live baby? Like what’s what what What is the world. You know what does that world look like when it comes to someone delivering a live baby And let’s say that they were three months along because they didn’t know when they, you know, they they they took the they they started late. Who you know for whatever reason they didn’t. They didn’t. You know what what does that look like what when it when it comes to like delivering a baby by someone’s self alone in a bathroom? And and then are women. What are they? Are they flushing these young babies that are born alive who are, you know, very premature what? I mean, what’s what exactly is this looking like?

Donna Harrison :

Well, it’s very sad. If you want to ever want to cry sometime, I think there’s a website i think it’s called Abortion Changes You and it’s just women’s Stories. It it’s it’s very difficult on these women when they were told you just have a BLOB of tissue inside and what comes out is, is a baby where they can see the hands and feet and you know, the face. And it’s it’s very difficult psychologically, very difficult. And so my heart goes out to those women who are basically abandoned in the process of of aborting yeah i mean I think you you kind of said it all. Where does it happen? Women can bleed anywhere from three days to three weeks. When will they abort most women will abort within about six hours of taking the mesoprostol, but not all of them will, and some of them will abort days later. And again, it it varies depending on gestational age. All of those studies were done in very early pregnancies, so the later gestational ages they’re likely to abort later. Yeah, women are being used as Guinea pigs in this, and it’s it’s all an issue of, frankly, abandonment of women who are, who are in the process of miscarring.

Jacob Barr :

It is very sad it’s it’s very, it feels very sad it feels like a system that is full of hate towards life and people and it’s exercising strategically how to destroy people.

Donna Harrison :

It feels like sure does, doesn’t it? And and don’t forget the money behind it. So it takes money to care for people. You you have to, you have to pay for people’s time, OK it’s very cheap for the abortion industry to give you a drug and then say YOYO. You know it. It doesn’t involve much on their part.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, that’s true. So there and then the fact that, well, it and it feels like there’s. What what oversight does the FDA have. I guess they have they have supposed well then I may not exercise it but they they should have oversight over the drugs being shipped in from the Cayman Island owned entity that even though the you know but these and then these drugs are being manufactured out of India or China which are. Completely different worlds when it comes to the value of life.

Donna Harrison :

And you know, you know what’s even worse somewhat different, but what? What what just kills me is that some of these online sites offer bulk discounts for Methoprex. Who do you think would want a bulk discount for Methoprex other than a pimp or an abuser? Who do you think would want that? There’s no guarantee as to who’s buying these drugs, and there’s no guarantee as to who’s adjusting these drugs. So this just opens this just greases the wheels for pimps and abusers to manage their herd. It’s so obscene and and there should be a national feminist outcry over this. Where is it?

Jacob Barr :

It’s yeah, it’s it’s there, there is. There’s no silver lining. It’s just full of death. So, so when women reach out to a pregnancy clinic because they feel like they’ve been lied to, they’ve been injured, they’ve been hurt by the message, you know, by this treatment that they and then they find out, you know through experience that it’s different Are women, I I guess women are probably are being invited into post abortion counseling. As as one way to reach out and help these women afterwards or or if it if they’ve taken if they’ve taken the first pill Mythopristic Mythopritics and they have changed their mind and they reach out to a pricing clinic then they could be connected with an APR regiment through a doctor or nurse. So it seems like that’s probably and it just seems like there’s such a, you know, I feel like when you when you said at one point you mentioned. That Planned Parenthood is pushing for the medicalization of of this treatment that essentially that reflects a lot of things, also reflects what you said about the, you know, reducing the, the cost of, you know, the medical costs tied to it. It also seems to reflect making it more available and and having less consequences for the people who provide it. Yeah, yeah i’m trying to wrap my head around that de medicalization. And it also seems like it invites people to take it more often at the wrong time or later times, which increase the the complexities and dangers of it.

Donna Harrison :

You said it. Yeah, no, it’s it’s first of all, what people have to realize is that elective abortion, it has no medical indication that’s why it’s elective, OK if there’s no medical reason to separate the mother and the baby, then it’s not medical care. It’s something else. It may be social control, it may be depopulation it may be it, but it’s not medical care. Medical care doesn’t kill. That’s what the Hippocratic Oath is all about we we took that oath to say we will not kill our patients we won’t kill them by euthanasia and we won’t kill them by abortion. So Planned Parenthood has pretended all these years that somehow abortion is medical care. And now they’re saying, well, it’s really not medical care, ’cause you really don’t need anybody medical involved, but you can’t have it both ways. And it they’re they’re they’re admitting to the fact that it really isn’t medical care and that it is something that is just about access, which on Planned Parenthood’s side, access means money. Ok the more you access the drug pushers drug, the more money the drug pusher makes. And and that’s kind of that’s kind of the situation that we have here. So yeah, it it is not a good or safe situation for women. And women are going to have to really look two or three or four times to get the information before they even think about doing an abortion and and most pregnancy care centers are are going to need to start being prepared to see more and more women who have done this to themselves at an unknown gestational age. Ultrasound’s going to be critically important for pregnancy care centers, and also being part of the Abortion Pill Reversal Network is going to be really important.

Jacob Barr :

Can you tell me what what is the Hippocratic Oath that a medical professional takes at the time of, you know, because it feels like, you know, how does an how does an how does a doctor or nurse who takes that oath?

Donna Harrison :

To connect with providing something that would not be considered care for all patients involved, well, that’s a whole other podcast, but we love to go go over it just real briefly with you. Unfortunately, the actual Hippocratic Oath hasn’t been taken at most medical schools since the nineteen eighties, and that was a reaction to introducing elective abortion because.

Jacob Barr :

It was actually tired of that.

Donna Harrison :

That elect you can’t do an elective abortion if you’ve taken the Hippocratic Oath it. It explicitly says I will not do an abortion it’s not mincing words. It also explicitly says I won’t participate in assisted suicide or euthanasia. It explicitly says that. So in order to get around that medical schools often started to create their own oaths which say things like I will. I vowed to make the planet green and I I vowed to use society’s resources well and none of that has to do with the doctor patient relationship the doctor patient relationship is established by the oath which says I will never hurt you. No matter what the circumstance, no matter what I’m paid, no matter what pressure is put on me. I will not hurt you as a matter of integrity, as a matter of medical integrity. And so those practitioners who do abortions are violating the Hippocratic Oath maybe they never took it. Maybe they don’t care, but they’re they’re violating what has been a basic tenant of medical ethics for two thousand five hundred years. I did not know that the Hippocratic Oath was not currently being taken by current new newer doctors since the since the eighties in many in many places i won’t say all places, but in many places it’s not taken. And the the oaths that are being taken have barely anything to do with not hurting people. They have to do with social justice they have to do with other things but it’s not. It’s not the I will not kill you.

Jacob Barr :

Because I can’t think of any other frictional point beyond abortion and euthanasia that connects with not taking the Hippocratic with because it’s a it seems like a very beautiful statement of care, yeah, but it obviously it it’s at odds with providing. Sun Care or Abortion?

Donna Harrison :

I’ll tell you something that would change the face of medicine if every person that hears this podcast the next time they go to their physician says, hey doc, did you take the Hippocratic Oath? What else did you take? And and ask him that would change the face of medicine. Because what we need is we need a patient centered accountability on physicians. And if your doc didn’t take the Hippocratic Oath, the real one, the one that says I won’t do abortion and euthanasia, you might want to find another doctor.

Jacob Barr :

Yeah, And then or if he didn’t or she didn’t, perhaps they could take it today. You know, I don’t see why a doctor couldn’t take it if it wasn’t part of their medical school’s you know, tradition, their newer tradition.

Donna Harrison :

No, no, I didn’t pay you to say that. But since you have said it.

Jacob Barr :

Please advertise the opportunity to take the Take the Hippocratic Oath today.

Donna Harrison :

Yes, Aplog has regional gatherings around the country we’ve started them this year to offer Hippocratic Oath re swearing to explain what the oath is to offer doctors an opportunity to retake it. Our next oath. Our next ceremony excuse me, our next gathering it’s a regional gathering. Our next gathering is in Utah on November sixth but you can also join virtually. We’ve had docs join us from all over the world so you can and and if you go to our website you’ll see it it’s it’s the Hippocratic gatherings, is what we’ve called them.

Jacob Barr :

I had no idea that you were involved in that. I I it just came up out of conversation.

Donna Harrison :

So while we recognize the need, just like you did and we said what can we do about it we can offer docs, we can educate them about the oath and we can offer them an opportunity to actually re swear it and we send you a certificate in a pen to remind you to post in your office. This is what the oath is, and it it’s a it’s a pledge between you and your patients it it it is your patience. It’s it’s your patience guarantee that you’re gonna be on their side and not on the side of somebody who wants to cut costs.

Jacob Barr :

Now the the Hippocratic Oath that someone could take coming up in November, is it the same exact verbiage and words that’s been used in ages ago? I mean pre eighties or is it slightly different?

Donna Harrison :

The oath is in Greek so not ever speak Greek, but it is, it is essentially the same oath, the same 7 tenants of the oath. I can. I can read it to you sure. Please do OK those who have taught me the art of medicine i will respect and will seek to faithfully impart my knowledge To those who accept this covenant and to whom I am a mentor. I will always seek the physical and emotional well-being of my patients according to my ability and judgement, being careful to do no intentional harm. I will not help a patient commit suicide, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly, I will not help a woman obtain an abortion in purity and holiness i will maintain the utmost respect for human life, carefully guarding my role as a healer. When indicated, I will seek the counsel of those with appropriate special skills for the treatment of my patient. I will always act for the benefit of the sick, treating all with professional and moral integrity, with respect and dignity. I will avoid all sexual involvement with my patients, those things that I have learned from or about my patients in confidence, I will hold in strictest confidence. May I be found faithful to these promises, and may I enjoy the practice of my art being respected as one who’s dedicated to the healing of the sick. That’s the auth i have it on my wall. So it’s 7-7 tenants, you know, patient confidentiality, don’t have sex with patients, don’t take advantage of them, be humble enough to to refer to other people, don’t do abortions and try to teach other people who also adhere to this over so that those are the seven tenants. It’s easy and important and was the basis of medical ethics for two thousand five hundred years.

Jacob Barr :

I’m I’m, I’m sort of guessing that the word abortion wasn’t in the original from twenty five hundred years ago because they probably didn’t use that word but that’s a newer modern word. So I’m assuming that might have been added within the last 8050 years or something, right?

Donna Harrison :

No, that word was there. Was it really about abortion? That’s that’s why the oath was taken see, in Hippocrates Day, and this is two thousand five hundred years ago, doctors would do whatever you paid them for you. You wanted them to abort you, They’d abort you you wanted them to kill off your husband. They’d kill off fair price. And Hippocrates said no, that’s not what medicine is. Medicine is a healing art. So he was a reform movement among the physicians of that day. Physicians have known about abortion for a long time, I mean.

Jacob Barr :

Twenty five hundred years I I did I had no idea that that language would have been the same. I mean the same language today is being it had that longevity that. You know, those historic roots and that it was that language back then.

Donna Harrison :

That’s a yeah, remember it was in Greek. But yeah, it’s the same. The same idea abortion.

Jacob Barr :

Wow. Yeah, if only we had the the ESV, the NIV and the Nas version of the Hippocratic Oath that had the same meaning, but yet with like modern language of course, that’s so easy to understand there’s really not a need for it to be paraphrased because it feels like it’s very. It’s very clear. It’s not like we’re we’re talking about these and dials and I get a little bit confused on what word we’re using but yet it’s really just a matter of care for the patient with like 7 angles of care. And it it feels relatively complete when it comes to very broad, beautiful, good ideas being described about patient care and. And for that to be removed because of the desire and need or whatever not not need but the desire to kill people in certain situations essentially when they have the least amount of voice or quote benefit or value to some people in society based on their ability.

Donna Harrison :

Or I mean who knows what I mean so that that I don’t want to even try and explore that thought process, but the the people who are most vulnerable are the ones that are being eliminated.

Jacob Barr :

Eliminated.

Donna Harrison :

Yeah yeah. It’s a utilitarian world view. See, it’s a world view that says we’ll maximize the happiness of the state. Ok so if you don’t, if you don’t contribute to making the state happy, if you cost too much at the beginning or the end, we’ll it’s a good thing to to knock you off that’s what the utilitarian view says and that’s unfortunately the viewpoint that that has overtaken society there’s some really good, really good books I could recommend to you about this, and really good authors leon Kass writes outstanding wrote outstanding stuff about the role of medicine and what it means to be a physician. A physician just isn’t anything it’s there’s a specific role to being a healer, and that does not include knocking people off. It just doesn’t.

Jacob Barr :

Do do people who are not. Doctors or nurses take the Hippocratic Oath?

Donna Harrison :

Or is there a similar oath for other professions that I don’t know. I mean, I’m sure there’s there’s oaths for other professions, but the Hippocratic Oath is was specifically for physicians, but there’s nothing to keep a nurse from doing that she’s also she or here also part of the healing profession so frankly, it it really should be the foundation now of medical ethics for all the healing professions.

Jacob Barr :

What does it look like to take the Hippocratic Oath is it a matter of saying it out loud with like someone’s hand up in the air or what? What is like, what does the posture look like and what does the experience look like?

Donna Harrison :

Well, I can only tell you what we have done to encourage this and we’ve had about now probably 8 ceremonies, hypocritical ceremonies and what it has involved in smaller groups at breakfast or lunch or supper or at our national conference. It involves a time where those of us who have been in practice stand and we reaffirm the oath and those of us who are taking it for the first time standing when in unison, we recite what I just recited to you exactly word for word. And then, you know, we offer the opportunity for people to to get a copy to frame to put in their office to remind them. So that’s what it looks like. But the Catholic Medical Association has also had Hippocratic Oath swearing ceremonies with a a Catholic version of the oath, which is really, really similar there’s just a few minor things and they’ve done that for decades. So they would do that at the graduation ceremonies of medical students that kept in places where the Catholic Medical Association has associated medical schools they would offer the ceremony like I participated in one as a speaker, oh, oh, years ago up in in Milwaukee. So, you know, different people do it different places but really it it’s a matter of taking this, and I mean in public, is when we say things in public and we stand for things in public, it really hits US in a different way than when we read something to ourselves. What can be done anyway? It’s a matter of saying this is the oath, this is, this is what I believe in, forms the foundation of my medical practice, and this is how I’m going to live. And you know, so help me God this.

Jacob Barr :

Is how I can help live have have abortion clinic workers or, you know, a Doctor Who works at an abortion clinic, have they? Do you know of them wanting to say the Hypocratic Oath and then being refused? Or what happens if someone like that does try and take the Hypocratic Oath and then they’re not upholding it like what would be the next step of, you know, like there’s i don’t. I don’t. Is there a governing body that would say you took this hypocritic oath? But yeah, yeah, here you are, you know, performing abortions. And you know your your oath is. You know what you know what would be the what would be the result of someone having a conflicting decision with what the oath says?

Donna Harrison :

There’s no governing body it’s a matter of personal integrity. It’s a matter of professional integrity. But I will have to say there are we have in Eplogue a lot of docs who performed abortions and came to the realization that they were hurting their patients. And and that realization that moment of of changing of heart is something that needs to be respected because many of these doctors thought that they were doing the right thing. They really didn’t understand how bad it is for women and when they understood they changed so. So I don’t want, I don’t want to ever demonize the docs that are doing abortions i think they’re grossly mistaken, but I think that if they, if they dig, if they try to see what it really is doing to their patients, those who have integrity will, will change. I mean, you all know Abby Johnson. She’s not a physician, but you all know Tony Levitino.

Jacob Barr :

Ok and Abby Johnson’s Ministry of the And then There Were None. Or Tony but yeah, calling people out of the abortion clinic and offering them love and care and not and not judgement, but rather helping provide them with healing and a pathway to meet Jesus or you know, maybe they met Jesus and that’s why they’re now changing that’s probably, that’s probably more realistic is that they anyway. But all they say is it’s it’s it’s not calling for them to be imprisoned or to be punished, but rather for them to be cared for, hypocriteic oath style, with them receiving that care and love and to reimagine.

Donna Harrison :

Their practice. To to re re understand what they were called to you know it’s it’s a better thing to heal than to kill.

Jacob Barr :

Well, that’s really beautiful and I think that might be a good end to this, this story and this dialogue and wow, that’s just the Hippocratic Oath what a beautiful thing like that that is just that’s something that needs to be embraced and I’m so excited to hear that you are promoting and you know rejuvenating that that self governing idea that I’m going to provide the best care and not hurt those who I’m caring for


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