Listen to Samuel Green and Jacob Barr talking about apologetic truths about life into church and counseling settings.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and in the latest episode of the pro-life Team Podcast, I had a deeply insightful conversation with Samuel Green from Reason for Life. We delved into various topics, including the biblical perspective on the value of life in the womb and strategies for conveying this message in churches, schools, and pregnancy centers. Samuel emphasized the importance of understanding and teaching the biblical view of life, especially in the context of abortion. He highlighted passages like Genesis 1, the story of John the Baptist in Luke 1, and the account of Samson in Judges, which illustrate the sanctity of life from conception. Our discussion also covered practical aspects, such as how pregnancy centers can more effectively engage with churches and the community, and the different approaches centers take in counseling and evangelism. We touched upon the challenges and responsibilities of churches in addressing sensitive topics like abortion and the growing need for Christian counseling in various life situations. The podcast concluded with a powerful prayer led by Samuel, seeking wisdom and guidance in advocating for life and truth.
Hashtags that match the content of this podcast include:
#ProLife, #BiblicalPerspectiveOnLife, #SanctityOfLife, #ChristianCounseling, #ChurchEngagement, #PregnancyCenters, #AbortionEducation, #BibleAndLife, #LifeInWomb, #ProtectingUnborn, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #ReasonForLife, #LifeAffirmingMinistry, #FaithAndLifeChoices, #GodsLoveForUnborn, #ScripturalTeachingsOnLife, #ChurchAndLifeIssues, #ValueOfHumanLife, #DefendingTheUnborn, #LifeAndScripture.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Samuel Green :
Well, hello and welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast my name is Samuel Green with Reason for Life, and I’m here with Jacob. And we’re discussing God’s heart of love for children in the womb and what the Bible teaches us about the value and humanity of the unborn and how you can share that truth in your churches, in your Christian schools, and in your pregnancy centers. Please join us.
Jacob Barr :
So Samuel, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. Would you introduce yourself as if you were talking with a couple executive directors with pregnancy clinics?
Samuel Green :
Absolutely well, thanks for having me on i appreciate the opportunity. My name is Samuel Green and I serve as President and General Counsel at Reason for Life, which is a Christian ministry that’s focused on ending abortion in the United States, and we do that largely through educational efforts, with a specific emphasis on reaching Christians with God’s heart of love for children in the womb. And so we do that by preaching on Sunday mornings at churches, sharing at church youth groups, Christian college Chapel services, and also for pregnancy centers one of the things we really want to help them do is be able to engage more with the churches that support them and encourage and equip those churches to become more activated in sharing and getting involved in the pro-life movement. And also equip them to be able to effectively reach their clients who are abortion minded, who also say that they believe in the truth of the Bible. So they can use not only the science and the logic that presents a beautiful case for life, but also the truths that we see from Scripture that may resonate with those who believe in God’s word.
Jacob Barr :
So yeah, I think it’s really awesome that you’re working with Presti clinics with the idea of, well, essentially with evangelism, using apologetics it sounds like. So can you tell me some of the your favorite or your keep the key passages that you find that really help sort of explain the humanity of the unborn in these kind of scenarios?
Samuel Green :
Absolutely so yeah, I think some people tend to say, oh, the Bible doesn’t say anything about abortion and of course, all of your listeners know that that’s not the case but I like to sort of present it in a very logical way and say, look, we know from Genesis one that God made human beings in his own image, and that shows us that he loves humans in a unique way. And we also know that one of the 10 Commandments prohibits murder, the taking of the life of a innocent human being. And so that also shows God’s concern for protecting and preserving human life. So when it comes to the abortion issue, really the only question for those who believe in the truth of the Bible is whether children in the womb are indeed human beings, such that they are made in the image of God and precious to him, and that the murder prohibition in the 10 Commandments would apply to protect them. And for that purpose, there’s a few key passages that provide really concrete examples to us that show that, yes, children in the womb are fully human and that God values them just like He values those who are walking and talking. So one of those comes from Luke chapter one, which gives the account of Gabriel coming to Mary and tell her that she is going to conceive and bear a son, who of course is the son of God and the Bible tells us in Luke one that after hearing that news, Mary went with haste. She went in a hurry to go visit her relative Elizabeth, who at that time was also pregnant with John the Baptist. And so we’re about to have a meeting of four people, of two women and the two baby boys that they’re carrying inside them. And the account there in Luke One is just so enlightening because it tells us that the moment that Mary’s greeting reached Elizabeth’s ears, that John the Baptist quote leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. And so you have this child in the womb you know, has never drawn his first breath, who’s experiencing the emotion of joy and leaping as a result, Perhaps because he recognizes that he’s in the presence of his unborn Savior, the one he would one day preach about in the wilderness. And so we live in a culture that tells us that children in the womb are just a meaningless BLOB of cells they don’t matter. But I sometimes like to ask people, does a meaningless BLOB of cells experience joy and leap as a result? Well, of course not but children, we know that they leap for joy and John leaped for joy in the womb, ’cause he was fully human even then. Luke 1 also tells us in verse 15 that John the Baptist was actually filled with the Holy Spirit before he drew his first breath. And so that tells us that God looked upon this child in the womb and loved him and valued him so much that he blessed him with this amazing gift of the Holy Spirit. And so if God views a child in that way, then we ought to do so as well. So that’s, you know, the first example that I think is so powerful. Also in Luke 1, we also learn some interesting insights from how Jesus is discussed because Elizabeth says how is it that the mother of my Lord should come. And so Elizabeth there is recognizing the deity of Jesus while he is still in the womb and actually at the very early stages of pregnancy. And I’m not the first to note that it’s interesting that when Jesus decided to come to earth as a human, he didn’t come as an infant, is a newborn baby in the stable he didn’t come as a toddler or a teenager or an adult. He came when all human existence begins at the moment of conception and I think that tells us a lot about how God views when life begins. So, moving past Luke one another passage that I really like to use comes from Judges, and it gives us the account of Samson, that really strong guy with long hair who killed a lion with his bare hands and a thousand Philistines with a jawbone. Well, what’s interesting for our purposes about Samson is that he was a Nazarite that’s someone who’s consecrated to God in a special way, who has to observe certain special rules, dietary restrictions, and a prohibition on hair cutting hence Samson’s really long hair. And what’s fascinating is when Samson became a Nazarite, and the Bible tells us in the Book of Judges that it was actually while he was an unborn child, that the Angel of the Lord came to Samson’s mother to tell her that she would conceive and bear a son and he instructs her not to eat or drink the things that Nazarites can’t eat or drink because Samson is to be a Nazarite to God from the womb. So again, we live in this time where people say my body, my choice to try to support abortion. But we have this very clear scriptural teaching that when God sees this woman pregnant with one child, he’s seen two bodies, the body of the mother and the body of the child within her. And he’s telling the mother, don’t eat or drink these things because your son is to be a Nazarite to God from the womb. You know, the mom’s not called to be a Nazarite, but the son is. And God sees Samson in the womb the same way he sees him outside the womb. And it’s important for him to be following the vows of the Nazarite in the womb and outside it and so that’s just another example that really gives us concrete truth that God views children in the womb just as he views each one of us. He loves them, and they’re among the neighbors that we have been called to love as ourselves.
Jacob Barr :
Wow, that’s I love that parallel between, yeah, Jesus in the womb and Samson in the womb. It makes me wonder. It makes me wonder if the angels might have told Mary to eat a certain way as well possibly i don’t even know. This makes me and now I’m curious what else the Angels might have shared with Mary when they when they announced that she was holding Yeah she had the Savior in her womb and to. Yeah to not fear and so that’s really interesting. I never really caught that Yeah. That was. Yeah samuel’s Yeah. Essentially, his mom was told not to eat certain things because of the rules or the dietary restrictions that were for the for the. That’s right that’s really intriguing so.
Samuel Green :
And one of the things I like, sorry, one of the things I really love about that story is, you know, I think that Christians in the pro-life movement are probably familiar with what’s probably the most famous pro-life passage from Psalms, talking about how the Lord knit us together in our mother’s womb and that were fearfully and wonderfully made. And I love that passage, and I share it. But I think sometimes the skeptics say, oh, well, you know, that may just be poetic. And so that example was Samson. You can’t try to say that’s just poetic you have something very concrete here where Samson’s mother has to adjust how she’s doing things, what she’s eating and drinking while pregnant because of the rules that God has for the son within her, because he has a special plan for that child and he’s a Nazarite consecrated to God from the womb. And so, you know, that’s something that you can’t chalk up to poetry. You’re very clear here that the God sees a unique human being and that’s, of course, what science teaches us as well about what exists in the womb of a pregnant woman.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and not that it has religious connotations but very often when a woman finds out she’s when she’s pregnant she’ll she’ll explore prenatal diets, special vitamins in order to have what her body needs during that time when it’s developing and using you know different well essentially has special needs during that pregnancy. So what would you say? What tools or ideas would you share with a counselor who’s talking to someone who is vulnerable to choose abortion? To when she’s when there’s someone’s talking to someone who may not know Jesus or is estranged from Jesus? How might you know, if you were to suggest a an idea or a set of passages or something to help a counselor weave in the story of Jesus into that counseling room what would you say to that?
Samuel Green :
Well, I certainly think the counselor has a much tougher job when someone doesn’t believe in Jesus. And so there you’re trying to reach them with the truth of the gospel you’re trying to be a personal, tangible demonstration of God’s love to that woman in this time of true turmoil in her life. And I think it’s a great opportunity to remind her that God loves her, that God desires what’s best for her, that God loves the child that’s within her. And the Bible teaches that God has created each person to accomplish good works that he has called them to do, and that God will help that woman accomplish the works he’s called her to do. And he will help that child live out the calling he has for that child’s life as well. And, you know, I think that when you have a woman who does believe in the Bible but is still contemplating abortion, you probably have a lot more room in what you can do because this is someone that already believes in the truth of the Bible so as you’re walking through the fascinating details about the beautiful development of the children in the womb, when you get to the point about quickening, when the mothers you know first tend to fill the child in the womb and how children can kick in somersault, that’s a great way to bring in Luke chapter one and talk about how John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb that’s a biblical example that dovetails right there with the science showing how children can be aware of their surroundings and react to them. You can bring in again Samson and how God has seen the child in the womb as an individual who has precious to him, just like each one of us. And that means that we’re called to love them, we’re called to care for them. And ultimately, in loving people, you know, Jesus said that there’s no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. But abortion that’s been sold to us and the culture is encouraging is the exact opposite of that. Instead of laying down our life for the benefit of another, abortion is asking us to lay down someone else’s life for our own perceived benefit and how that must grieve the heart of the Lord when that happens. And so to just encourage this woman to show love to her child is God has called us to do so, and that God will help us through that as we walk in faith to do the things that he has called us to do, that he will carry us through and supply our every need. And I think that can be a great encouragement to those who are pro are professing Christians to be reminded of these truths and realize the dangers of what they’re currently considering you know the devil is the father of lies, and he wants us to believe the lies without thinking critically about them so it was we can bring in the scriptural truths. Again, to those people who already believe in the Bible, what a great way to help take the veil off of their eyes and help them see the truth about the value of the child within them and the really devious, terrible thing that the devil is trying to get them to do that they ought to reject.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, I think it was about six or seven years ago i was, I was at a pregnancy clinic training event and there was this psychologist his name was Doctor Lester, and he shared something that really struck me, which was so when a woman’s in a crisis, she’s but not thinking logically or, you know, thinking logically maybe outside of what she’s able to do because she’s experiencing a lot of, well, the crisis has an impact on how she thinks and how she looks and she might essentially have what I equated to, like tunnel vision where she can’t really step back and look at all of her options. She feels like she’s sort of, like, stuck in this, like she has to choose abortion more so than choosing abortion as an option that she actually wants. And one of the things that he suggested was helping someone slow down and breathe and regain logic and some of the tools that he suggested were time. If someone can spend time letting their heart rate, you know, slow down a bit, that’s going to help. And then I think he also, he also suggested using like a Pepsi or a Coke when it comes to caffeine. Because it’s, you know, Coke and Pepsi actually have a lot of negative health consequences for you know, for what they are. But one thing that they do have is a way of de stressing, which is probably the only real benefit they seem to have perhaps but. And that and chocolate has the same reaction again, terrible for you but yet everyone loves it and it actually can help someone de stress and so if there’s ever a time to have chocolate and a Pepsi or Coke, it’s probably when you’re not able to think logically and you need to because someone’s life is on the line. And then spending time to regain that logic with then make it make that space for someone to think about the development of the baby in the womb or the logical sense it has for looking at the next 10 plus years more so than looking at the next 10 weeks or 10 months. And because really abortion is probably most attractive at that ten week, the 10 month range, while life completely outweighs it, if you start looking at it from 10 years on through generations and so it you know life will always went out if someone can think logically long term, I don’t see how it would ever not went out because of the potential that it has as life. Yeah, just from what it is, what are your thoughts on those things?
Samuel Green :
Well, I’m not a psychologist and I learned something new with the stress reducing benefits of soda. I didn’t know that before. But yes, definitely. You know, I think that you know, the devil is a is a crafty guy and he seeks to really get us to do things in moments of weakness, which can often involve moments of panic. And the more we can take time to pray. Think about what God’s word teaches us, think about the resources that are available to us, the more likely we are to make a decision that is God honoring and so obviously, when someone comes into a pregnancy center and a counselor has a chance to talk to them, it’s a great moment to slow them down and speak these truths and help them to stop just being reactive. But to actually, again, think about what the Lord says and think about what an abortion actually means. You know, I think that depending on the circumstance in that counseling room, you might even ask, you know, how do you think God would have viewed the situation if Elizabeth had aborted John the Baptist, who the Lord filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb think about how that would grieve the Lord And this child within you was created by the same God who made John the Baptist, who loves John the Baptist, who loves your child in the same way? He has special plans for this child and he has blessed you with the opportunity to be the mother of that child. And the Lord, you know, walks alongside us and He calls us to have faith for your future, faith for the future of your child. And the devil wants us to give that all up but we can’t fall for those lies we need to rely on the truth of God’s Word and the character of God’s goodness and love for us and this child that he has created in his own image.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, So what do you think the if you were to make a suggestion to a church on how to weave in a pro-life message that’s going to impact their congregation and those in their community, you know, what are your thoughts on engaging the church or also schools what are your thoughts on engaging these different, you know, houses of groups or how you know, groups of people within a community to really try and impact our culture and trying to really turn, you know, continue to promote life? How would you go about that?
Samuel Green :
Well, I think for pastors they have a very important opportunity and I would say responsibility in preaching the full counsel of God’s word to make sure that they’re providing a clear, biblical, loving, truth filled message on this topic. I think a lot of pastors are reluctant to do so for a couple of reasons. One is they often perceive the issue as a political one and they say I’m not political, I’m a preacher, I don’t want to get into politics. And I think they’re also tend to be concerned because they know that a lot of women and men in their church have sadly participated in an abortion in the past and this is a sensitive topic, and they’re worried that speaking about the issue could cause pain for those people. And so to those two concerns, I like to say that on the political front, yes, abortion has become a subject of political controversy, but it’s first and foremost a biblical issue that is close to the heart of God. And the fact that it’s actually politically controversial tells us that a lot of people are confused about the issue they don’t know how to view the issue through a biblical lens in a God honoring way and that makes it all the more important for you as a pastor, as someone who they are looking to for truth to speak with unmistakable clarity on this topic so that people are not deceived so they’re not LED away to the slaughter, to the literal slaughter of their own children. That, you know, will not only take human lives, but then often cause the type of physical, spiritual, and emotional suffering that the pastor knows many in their church have already suffered. And on that front, knowing about the past abortions. I think that reality that there are people who are burdened by guilt and shame and regret is a reason for pastors to talk about this issue. Because it provides an amazing opportunity to remind people that the grace and forgiveness that Jesus offers extends to all of our sins, including a past sin of abortion and that God has special plans for each member of the congregation and he loves them. And he is there to provide healing and forgiveness to them and wants them to live out the all the purposes that he has called them to accomplish and not be weighed down by this guilt and shame. So preaching on the topic not only has presents an opportunity to bring healing or the truth about the healing that Jesus offers to those who are hurt, but also to provide the information others need to not walk down that same path of pain and suffering. And so, to help pastors know how to approach this issue, the ministry I run, Reason for Life, actually has a full written sample sermon that’s free to pastors. They can use it word for word or take portions of it and that’s on our website, which is just Reason for life.org under the Resources tab. I also go and guest preach at churches, so if that’s something a church is interested in, I’m happy to try to make that happen. And similar discussion when it comes to schools, like if you’re a Christian School or college, people are looking to you for solid biblical education. And this is a topic where people are misled, where what the culture is telling them is contrary to what the Bible teaches. And so that’s something that you need to come in and provide that clear biblical teaching so they’re not deceived by the lies they’re hearing in society.
Jacob Barr :
I mean when you say come in, you’re talking to Prey sea clinic directors or would that also possibly include, well, probably pH CS, but maybe pastors who would you say would be ideal to come in to a school or which, Yeah who might be the. I know prey sea clinics will often have school outreach programs. I don’t. I haven’t seen churches as involved in that space, but maybe in some places they are.
Samuel Green :
Well, a lot of Christian schools have Chapel services and so I’m happy to try to come speak at those Chapel services or help equip the faculty or administrators or maybe the campus pastor to present that biblical case for life at the Chapel service or at a school assembly. And I think it’s great when pregnancy centers can come in and focus more on the science and the development of the children of the womb and show an ultrasound and all those things. I think that’s fantastic. But I think if you’re a center that provides Christian education, it’s also good to go ahead and present what the Bible teaches on this subject. And so happy to walk alongside schools in figuring out the best way to present that. So yeah, if you’re affiliated with a Christian School, please feel free to reach out and I’d love to try to help.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and that makes sense with the Christian schools having Chapel but what do you think about the charter schools or the public schools? I do think I do know that Tracy clinic sometimes they’ll have like a gate or a door into that space, but I don’t see the church having that same door into like the public or non Christian schools.
Samuel Green :
Right so Reason for Life is mainly focused on outreach to those who provide Christian education. And therefore we have more of the biblical focus obviously, if you’re dealing with a public school, there are more limitations. But thankfully, as you mentioned, pregnancy centers sometimes do have those opportunities, sometimes in the context of sexual health education where they can go in and just present the science and, you know, never mention the Bible perhaps, but teach the beautiful truth that we have that really conveys the value of human life and so I think those are great opportunities to pursue. Again, while I’m mostly focused on Christian education, sometimes end up in the secular realm, I’m also an attorney and so sometimes I’ll go speak at law schools regarding some important abortion related litigation that’s happening and so when I’m giving those talks, I’m more focused on the Constitution and case law and science and not so much what the Bible teaches about life and I think that a similar approach can be used when you’re talking about the issue within public schools.
Jacob Barr :
So something i saw while doing a research project about seven weeks ago. I went to every abortion clinic website I could find, which was about 188 and one of the findings that I came across was about with a high majority going way beyond Planned Parenthood’s website. Most of these abortion clinic websites would offer three things, or maybe a few more. They would offer abortions, which is one of the things that was determining whether or not they were an abortion clinic. Then they also would offer transgender services like hormone blocks and hormone ads, and then they would and then usually things that seemed more normal after that but it’s really interesting that these abortion clinics have essentially expanded their scope of service to include these hormone blocks and hormone ads and possibly more when it comes to these transgender services. I feel like a lot of what you’re sharing would apply to that space or how would you, what would you say to that? You know, essentially I feel like you know the fight against abortion is expanding into this greater, this greater topic of potentially the. I feel like the devil has changed the sights from the unborn to expanding very heavily on the young, such as those who were born all the way through puberty. And he is putting a lot of emphasis and attack on this younger group. And then I also feel like it still impacts people’s ability to have children and it also impacts their life when it comes to the higher percentage of people who are, you know, when it comes to suicide rates or having mental disorders being created or enhanced, there’s a lot of issues that come out of these, you know, making decisions before someone’s frontal lobe is developed and when they’re very vulnerable to adults who are not being helpful in a healthy way. Is that something that you’ve dealt with at all, or is that outside of your work or service?
Samuel Green :
It is outside of Reason for Life’s current focus, which is focused pretty much exclusively on the abortion issue. But I would just say briefly that it the Church has a big responsibility and its work is certainly cut out for it and we know that the devil comes to steal, to kill and to destroy, and he operates on those fronts in many different ways. Abortion is perhaps one of the ways that he has used most successfully to kill, steal and destroy in the United States. But you just mentioned another area where he is causing quite a lot of harm and where society is again confused and where the church is again often reluctant to speak. And so I just encourage the pastors out there to look at these issues where cultural culture’s message is conflicting with the Bible and where we are seeing a lot of confusion. And I just encourage those pastors to emphasize those issues from the pulpit, talk to their congregation about what God’s Word teaches, and equip them to not be deceived and harmed by the devil’s tactics we know he’s like a lion who prowls about seeking whom he may destroy and pastor you don’t want that to be people within your church or your community so please, speak boldly, speak lovingly, and speak from the truth of the bible.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah. And it’s also I feel like there’s this very large need for Christian counselors or someone who is willing to have the skills and who will help someone D transition from an LAGAB or AT or some other letter perhaps to you know towards the cross towards Jesus towards H towards a healthy lifestyle that will produce a family and will be a way of honoring God. And I feel like a lot of the and what I’ve heard is that several professional counseling groups will not well, you know, helping someone D transition puts them in jeopardy of losing that association and then the government’s coming you know, essentially putting things out that says de transitioning someone is dangerous and harmful almost as a way of setting the stage to remove a child from a family. And so it’s just a lot of, there’s a lot going on there, but going back towards, you know, supporting, supporting this work that Jesus has called us to do through the church body. And I personally look at what a Prince the clinic does as being like an extension of a church family or a church body. And usually I see it as like this bridge between different church bodies coming together towards a common goal and mission to essentially defend or to support women who are in a very well in a crisis, essentially with the culture saying you, you’re not ready to be a parent and that you should end your offspring’s life. And I look at these Prancy clinics as being this bridge between pro, you know, Christian groups to serve and walk alongside each other, to serve Jesus and essentially to help more image bearers of God, be, you know, have breath and have life and then reflect God in the unique fingerprint that they have.
Samuel Green :
Yeah, I think that pregnancy centers provide a critical function and I encourage them to do more in trying to engage the churches i know that a lot of pregnancy centers do have a network of churches that thankfully support them financially often times might help throw baby showers for, you know, mothers who have come and avail themselves of the services at the center. But I would like to see more of that and to church for churches to see these pregnancy centers is a ministry that can be an extension of the church in a lot of ways so that when there is someone who comes into the church who is facing a difficult pregnancy circumstance, that here’s the center that hopefully the church is supporting, that is really specialized and equipped to walk alongside this person in the church and help the church minister to that individual. And then when people come who are not involved in a church to the pregnancy center, it’s great when they can plug them into a church in their community and help them be discipled in the ways of the Lord and grow in their knowledge and love of Him. So that they are not only transformed as individuals but also more equipped to be a loving parent to the child that they have. And i also think that when churches do support pregnancy centers, it’s often in the context again, of the baby shower or maybe they do baby bottles every year, the baby bottle fundraiser, where they, you know, encourage people to fill up the bottles between Mother’s Day and Father’s Day with money. And that’s great. But I would like to see more pregnancy centers encouraging the churches to go beyond that. And again, actually teach from the pulpit on Sunday morning not reserve it for a Wednesday night or Sunday school class, but actually Sunday morning reaching the whole congregation with the truth about God’s heart of love for children in the womb. And if pastors present that message, I think that it will have a couple of effects. One, it’ll encourage more people in the church to get involved in the cause of life, to go volunteer at that pregnancy center to donate more. And then it will also provide a situation where hopefully people are not turning to abortion we talked earlier about how when a woman is considering abortion, she is in a moment of crisis and you said may have tunnel vision it’s very hard to reach them and thankfully pregnancy centers do a valiant, you know, they have make a valiant effort to do so and are often successful, but that’s a very hard time to reach someone. It’s far better if you can reach them when they’re not pregnant and help them to think about the issue so that when they are facing a difficult pregnancy circumstances, abortion is never on the table. And we know from studies that a significant portion of those seeking abortions are church attenders they’re attending Catholic or Protestant churches regularly and then they’re turning to abortion. So for pregnancy centers to help the pastors understand, there may be women in your church who will go and have an abortion next month, next year if they never hear the truth from you. And how tragic would it be for a child to die and for the woman to live the rest of her life with this regret simply because they heard the cultures lies and they never heard the truth from the pulpit. So for the pregnancy centers to really urge those pastors to step out and share the truth and help them know they can do it in a loving way, in a biblical way, is quite important and so if we can help pregnancy centers do that, we’re glad to do so i know that a lot of churches spend some attention on the abortion issue in January for Sanctity of Human Life Sunday. We think every Sunday is a good time to talk about life and if a pregnancy center wants to get Reason for Life sample sermon to the pastors are connected with, we’re glad to help them do that. Right now on our website, the generic sample sermon has a little blank spot for the pastor to mention their local pregnancy center, and we have a directory where the pastor can look it up. But if a pregnancy center wants to put their own name in that blank spot and give it to the pastors in their network, we’re glad to try to help them do that and help this be a resource to raise up a Christian community that will walk alongside them and value and promote life.
Jacob Barr :
Oh, that’s good. Yeah, I think it was a couple years ago i did a well maybe two years ago I did a podcast about this Precy clinic who had clients who wanted to get married and they couldn’t afford even the justice of the peace price tag of like 75$ or something. And so they paid for the marriage license and they found the church who would actually throw the baby shower who helped put on the wedding and as part of and also provided marriage counseling and as part of that love being poured out on that couple the couple ended up joining the church and I think that I think when I did the podcast a year and a half or two years ago, I think they had done like seven of these weddings in that way and so that’s an example of how a church can literally use something that it already has, which is its building and the ability to throw a wedding to help someone who is in a very important, you know, a hinge when they’re, when they’re making the decision to go in a better direction. And what an important way to celebrate that life giving direction and helping them come together as a couple and obviously that’s not for every couple in a crisis pregnancy, but it very well may be for several. And so that’s an interesting idea of how a church can, you know, use some creative thinking and have essentially help when it comes to that. The formality or the, you know, the pieces that come alongside going from an unplanned pregnancy of two people into a marriage with a baby, which might be a good move for certain couples.
Samuel Green :
Yeah, I think there are tremendous opportunities for churches and pregnancy centers to have a great symbiotic working relationship where they can each come alongside the other and benefit them you could see the church congregation grow through people coming to them from the pregnancy center you can see the pregnancy centers thrive as people in the church feel this is something that I want to come participate in and help, and it’s also something that really provides pastors with a great place to refer people in the congregation who are facing tough pregnancy circumstances and I think that often times people think of the tough pregnancy circumstance as the person who is pregnant outside of wedlock and that can certainly be one of the cases, and often is. But it can also be a married couple within your church who they already have some kids, they’re tight on finances, and all of a sudden they find out they’re pregnant and they didn’t want to be and now they’re panicked. Well, they might need a pregnancy center as well or maybe they’re pregnant and they get a diagnosis that the child has some physical or mental difficulty and they’re scared and they don’t know what to do that could be another place where the Pregnancy center can walk alongside the Church and the Church member and minister to them and show them the love of Christ and help carry their burdens as we are called to do as part of the Body of Christ.
Jacob Barr :
So some Precy clinics will, when it comes to like evangelism in the counseling room, some Precy clinics will you essentially they present the gospel through actions by you know, loving actions of giving resources and then they might use the leading of the spirit to bring up an evangelistic conversation and then some Prancy clinics have it as like a checklist item to essentially make sure that they bring it up every time at a, you know, maybe it’s the fifth checklist item on things to bring up during that certain counseling session. What are your thoughts on those different approaches of whether someone you know wants to share Jesus by showing actions, by bringing it up every time, or by waiting for the leading of the Spirit?
Samuel Green :
Well, I would say that’s outside of my area of expertise so i’m reluctant to weigh in on that debate.
Jacob Barr :
No, that’s fine. And i personally try to think that all the approaches are what some you know what a group decided to do and it seems like to me like there’s three different groups of precis clinics primarily there’s like about, you know, let’s say 1/3 are Catholic, 1/3 are evangelical, and then 1/3 are hybrids where they’re, you know, part Catholic and part evangelical. It seems to me like the Catholic groups apparently will show Jesus through actions in the counseling room and then they might bring it up based on the leading of the Spirit. And then the evangelical groups typically lean towards bringing it up every time, but obviously still will listen to the leading of the Spirit. And so I feel like both are really valid options and are saving lives and bringing you know or reflecting a calling that they hear. I guess if I had to lean towards one, I would lean towards the evangelical model. But I would i would support a group using the actions and the leading of the spirit only and not bringing it up every time i would support that too but I would probably lean towards bringing it up every time. But yeah, it’s a really good. I find it interesting that those are some of the different approaches and I feel like different groups have. There’s, you know, if there’s anything that we’ve learned through, you know, learning about God in the Bible is that he uses a creative selection of ways of expressing who he is. I mean when it comes to miracles, there’s, you know, he doesn’t do the same miracle every time there’s a variety of miracles that he does and he’s when it comes to being creative, I feel like he gives us room to also reflect him in his creativity. So I think there’s room to do it more than just one way of bringing things up. Well Samuel, I really appreciate you being on this podcast and sharing, you know this. Essentially I feel like it’s almost like an apologetic flavor of bringing Jesus into these this scenario with using logic and the Bible and using you know essentially trying to use reasons for someone to choose life and it really supporting that makes a lot of sense. Would you, would you wrap up our podcast by saying a prayer and with the expectation that those who are on their daily commute will join in on this prayer to yeah, to reflect the heart, you know, reflect what you bring into this prayer.
Samuel Green :
I’d be glad to. Well, Heavenly Father, we thank you that you are the author of Life and God. We know that the enemy does come to kill, steal, and destroy, and that we are facing incredible opposition, and that we cannot succeed in our passion and our heart to save the lives of unborn children without your help. And so, Lord, I ask that you would give each person listening wisdom in how they can most effectively show love to their unborn neighbors that you would guide their steps. That you would encourage them to be bold, Lord that we would not be held back by fear of man, but that we would go boldly to do all that you have called us to do that we would speak in a way that we can be effective bearers of your truth and your light and your love in this world that is so lost in darkness. God help us to be salt and light. Lord, I pray specifically for the pastors and leaders of Christian schools, those who have been given this an incredible opportunity to share your word to many and Lord, I also pray for the counselors at pregnancy centers. Lord, as they’re doing their work, I ask that you would give them wisdom about how they can best share the truth of your word and your love for unborn children. God, that they would have the boldness to do so, that they would see that there’s a way that this can be done that combines grace and truth. Lord, you have great plans for us, and I ask that you would help us to carry out those plans that you, your word, would be a lamp unto our feet that we would hear from you, that we would follow you no matter what logic tells us, no matter what the world tells us that we would hear the directives you have for us and follow them in accordance with your word. In the name of Jesus, I pray these things amen.
Jacob Barr :
Amen.
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