Listen to Shawn Zierke and Jacob Barr talk deceptive marketing tactics and ethical word decisions around phrases like “Pre-Abortion Consultation”.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr from the Pro-Life Team Podcast. In today’s episode, I had a stimulating conversation with Shawn Zierke from Zierke Consulting Group. We explored various aspects of pro-life advocacy and the evolving landscape of pregnancy centers, particularly addressing the complexities of deceptive advertising practices and the nuances of abortion-related counseling and messaging.
Shawn Zierke shared her extensive experience in the pro-life arena, including her journey from leading a clinic in Dubuque, Iowa, to her role in advocating for ultrasound machines in pregnancy centers, eventually influencing a national initiative by the Knights of Columbus. Her expertise extends to consulting for life-affirming organizations, where she employs her background in public health and social entrepreneurship.
Our discussion revolved around the delicate balance pregnancy centers must maintain in their messaging and services. We delved into the significance of offering pre-abortion counseling, which encompasses options counseling and informed consent about abortion procedures. Shawn emphasized the importance of providing comprehensive, non-deceptive information to women considering abortion, ensuring they understand all their options, including parenting and adoption, alongside the medical and psychological implications of abortion.
We also touched upon the evolving strategies of the abortion industry, including the diversification of their services and the disturbing emergence of websites promoting at-home abortion methods and self-induced abortions using dangerous procedures. The conversation highlighted the need for pregnancy centers to adapt and respond to these changing tactics, ensuring they remain a reliable, trustworthy source of support and information for women in crisis.
In conclusion, Shawn and I discussed the potential future developments in pregnancy center services, including mental health counseling and the challenges posed by state-specific abortion laws. Our conversation underscored the critical role of pregnancy centers in providing compassionate, accurate guidance to women facing unplanned pregnancies, and the ongoing need to adapt to the shifting landscape of reproductive health services.
#Hashtags: #ProLifeTeamPodcast, #ZierkeConsulting, #PregnancyCenters, #AbortionCounseling, #UltrasoundAdvocacy, #InformedConsent, #AbortionIndustry, #SelfInducedAbortions, #MentalHealthCounseling, #ReproductiveHealth, #UnplannedPregnancy, #StateAbortionLaws, #CompassionateGuidance, #HealthServicesAdaptation, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #CrisisPregnancySupport, #LifeAffirmingChoices, #EthicalHealthcare.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Shawn Zierke :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m Shawn Zierke with Zierke Consulting Group here with Jacob Bar, and we are going to be talking about a variety of topics today. But the first big topic is being accused of deceptive advertising practices and what that means for your pregnancy center, in light of some recent directives that have come out advising pregnancy centers about abortion screening, abortion consultation, abortion options, and should you be using these terms?
Jacob Barr :
So Shawn, I’m excited to have you again on the pro-life Team Podcast. For those who don’t know who you are, would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a small group of Prancy clinic leadership executive directors or board members?
Shawn Zierke :
Sure so my name is Shawn Zierke i am a owner and consultant with Zierke Consulting Group. Live for very many years in Iowa but now we live in North Central Florida. And I, my gosh, I’ve been in the pro-life fight since I was in high school i remember being passionate about making sure all my friends understood what saline abortion was and how off of awful it was as far back as ninth grade. But Fast forward to 2006 and I was the hired as the executive director of a clinic in Dubuque, iowa to convert it to a pregnancy health medical clinic they did. Patient administered pregnancy test at that time and they wanted to offer ultrasound and STD testing so I came in and converted them and it was kind of new back then to have ultrasound and STD testing and I mean 2006 that was a long time ago then and then I was there i did that successfully and then went to Iowa City and helped to start Informed Choice of Iowa, which grew eventually to five clinics in a mobile unit up until COVID. But then i also had five kids and my husband was an up and coming chef so I, before I left, informed Choice of Iowa, though, I had the opportunity to speak to the Knights of Columbus of Iowa at their state convention and cast this vision about having ultrasound machines in pregnancy centers and having women the opportunity giving the opportunity to see their baby by ultrasound and choose life. And they ended up giving ultrasound machines to inform Choice of Iowa and then a year later, the Iowa Knights spoke to the National Knights and it became the National Knights initiative to put ultrasound machines in pregnancy centers across the nation. And I’m sure they’re well beyond their eleventh hundredth machine, probably at this point now since that was in 2008 And so then I went and helped my husband with the restaurant business and went back to school, got a master’s in public health and health management policy i got an MBA and social entrepreneurship which is the business of nonprofits and started my consulting business in 2016 really primarily working with life affirming organizations. And so and what brought me to Iowa is that I created to a registered nurse apprenticeship program you had us on your one of your podcasts talking about the Super nurse and that was in 2020 we created that in 2021 I was invited to come to Florida and roll it out across the state under a nearly half 1000000$ grant. And so that’s what brought us to Florida and what kept us here is through that I found out about this little baby who needed a heart transplant and they wouldn’t give him a heart without an adoptive family so my husband and I adopted a baby after having five adult children and a grandbaby we adopted a baby and he got his heart transplant. So that’s what I do i work with pregnancy centers, multi specialty medical practices that are life affirming, and other nonprofit organizations across the nation to help them do what they do even better.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome yeah thank you for sharing your back story and so the podcast today we’re going to be talking about this well essentially some messaging and word choice you know thoughts when it comes to something that Karen at put out as well as yeah just talking about these phrases on their own and how people perceive them, what they mean, what risk might be connected with some of these. And I’m looking to you for the medical look into the medical lens with your experience and yeah from that from that side and I’ll try and look at it from the marketing lens, but yeah so what are your thoughts on this statement about the pre abortion screening phrasing? What’s what you share the back story on this phrasing based on Carenet’s i guess it was a an article or a statement that they had made.
Shawn Zierke :
Yeah, i was just made aware of it because several of my clients are Carenet affiliates that received this communication really cautioning their affiliates to not what they were perceiving as deceptive advertising practices that accusation from the pro abortion community and the liberal left out there trying to tell the world that pregnancy centers are engaged in deceptive marketing practices and that they are passing themselves off as one thing and providing a completely different service, which we all know in this world that is not the case. There are some however, organizations that go way too far in their redirect and advertising and their counseling to get abortion vulnerable and abortion minded women in the door. And they have been deceptive and women are showing up thinking they were coming to an abortion clinic so unfortunately where do most laws come, you know, come from when people don’t do the right thing to start with and people end up harmed. And so that’s where laws and legislation come in. So in the case of with this directive from Carenet, I’m sure that on one hand they wanted to distance themselves from any affiliate that wasn’t absolutely clear with their clients about the services they do and do not provide. At the same time, I believe that they may have gone too far in their directive. I believe that and you can speak to the marketing side of this, but women are who are seeking an abortion, are saying I need an abortion. They’re Googling, Where can abortion near me they’re Googling. How do I induce A miscarriage? They’re Googling all these things they’re not Googling where do I find a pregnancy center if they’re abortion minded, right? Most of these women don’t even think that, or even know that they don’t have enough information to make a medical an informed medical decision. And the Planned Parenthood’s and other abortion clinics like them are counting on the fact that women don’t know that they need more information to make an informed decision. So in that pursuit, do they need pre abortion counseling yeah. Do we provide pre abortion counseling? Every pregnancy center should be providing pre abortion counseling. That’s called options counseling. That’s what we train our options counselors to do, right?
Jacob Barr :
Yeah And I think from my experience, 85 well what % do you know of women to go into a Precy Clinic or abortion leaning or at risk of choosing abortion or abortion minded i’m not sure which phrase to use here, but what % of women will end up choosing life, parenting or adoption after receiving care at a Precy clinic what’s been your number that you’ve seen? What’s the range you’ve seen?
Shawn Zierke :
So it’s as high as 85 % when they are able to see their baby by ultrasound. When you have a pregnancy Resource Center that lacks the ultrasound option, the medical option, their effectiveness does decline considerably because the argument that you could say, well, 60 % of these pregnancies end in miscarriage before 12 weeks, and in fact it’s even higher than that now. In a society that’s had the introduction of the COVID vaccine, women are miscarrying at a much higher rate and so verifying that it’s a viable pregnancy via ultrasound is important information to have before you even consider abortion. The I’ve said this before, you may have heard me talk about it, but informed consent for medical procedures is when you get the procedure described to you, the risks of that procedure and any of the potential side effects that you would experience for that procedure. And even in receiving a drug combination like Mythopristone or Mythopristol, you, your pharmacist, if they see that you’ve never picked that prescription up from them at the pharmacy, they offer you counseling and they say you Are you aware how this is going to work you might want to make sure that you don’t drive or operate heavy machinery or don’t take this and ibuprofen at the same time. Or there’s been a percentage of women that take misoprystal alone that have uterine rupture or they’re vomiting so much so badly they have esophageal ruptures and bleed out. Are you aware of that risk and what percentage of women have that happen to them and what are the conditions in which that can happen. And so that’s the information that we need to be delivering to women in a pre abortion screening. If that’s the information you’re delivering you can give that and say well we don’t provide abortions here we want to make sure that you have all the information you need to make an informed decision.
Jacob Barr :
Would pre abortion screening be considered like let’s say with other elective medical decisions? Medical, elective medical operations? Is the pre screening regularly is it normally looked at as a unique individual service or is that separate from the actual procedure or how would that be looked at?
Shawn Zierke :
It is separate from the procedure you should always have. You don’t wait and schedule a surgery for a patient that you’ve never seen. Although I’m saying this, and I can immediately think of a recent VA patient story that I heard from a internal medicine doc who said that he had this patient call him up and say I’m done with the VA. They scheduled me for a surgery and I never even saw the doctor, which is just not standard of care. It is not standard of care. A patient should understand what their condition is in their diagnosis. They need to understand what are their options, All of them that’s why we hear people talking about second opinions. Maybe they don’t like the options they were given, so they want to talk to somebody else who knows some additional options for them, right or have their original options confirmed. Then you have to make a decision based on the risk and your particular set of health needs. Is this the right procedure for you based on all that information? And so you should have the option to have informed consent for all of these things. And we know that when you’re facing an unplanned pregnancy, all the things that are legally available to you unfortunately vary from, you know, state to state right now, it would be great if the only two options were to parent or to place your child for adoption, but that’s not the case right now. And it’s even more detailed differences depending on what you have a heartbeat law. Do you have a 15 week abortion ban? Is abortion legal all the way up until the moment of natural delivery? It just depends on which state you live in and options counselors providing true, informed consent should be required to one determine do you have a viable pregnancy, how far along you are, what are the options available to you, and what are the procedures, risks and side effects so that you can make an informed decision.
Jacob Barr :
Now what? What are your thoughts about a pricing clinic providing this pre abortion screening consultation advice information while not promoting the abortion procedure or the abortion decision?
Shawn Zierke :
So in a true informed consent option in a pregnancy out medical clinic, if you’re saying well, your options to parent include this we can connect you with housing, childcare assistance. We can help you sign up for food stamp benefits and Medicaid and WIC. We can help you with all these things. Are you addicted to drugs well, let’s call a drug counseling support group or program are do you need child care are you in a domestic violence relationship? Right that’s why her plan, SBA Pro-life America created her plan because her plan connects you to resources in your state that cover all of these areas of need, all these reasons that you may even second guess whether you can continue to parent a child in an unplanned pregnancy. So pregnancy centers should be prepared to connect women to all of those resources if at all possible. Then if they say, well, i don’t think I can do that even if you provide me with housing or food or whatever, I can’t do it well adoption is another option, and you tell them how adoption Open closed the modern adoption process. Heartbeat offers amazing classes for nurses and counselors on how to offer that information and connect them to reputable adoption agencies in their community right. No, I still want an abortion. All right, well, let’s see how far along you are. Ok, I understand that you’re really considering this option. Let’s have an ultrasound, See how far along you are. So you you’ve confirmed, well, they are pregnant. They’re 13 weeks pregnant. Well, in your state it is legal. So what are your options at 13 weeks and you walk through what a surgical abortion is, What does that involve? What are they going to feel like? What are they physical, mental implications to their body and their mind and their spirit. And that is true counseling in an informed consent. And when women are faced with real information and real resources and you understand how to counsel them, the Ottawa Decision Guide is a great method for learning how to counsel people in a life or death situation. It was originally created for people facing cancer diagnosis, right? And nurses are trained then on that and then it was adapted for emergency room and trauma and life or death situations for nurses and medical personnel to counsel people and their options when they have a very short amount of time to make it an informed decision. So the Ottawa Decision Guide is a great method for pregnancy center to incorporate in truly giving informed consent in counseling these women on what their options are. So the answer, that very long winded answer is yes. I would do what I do in high schools when I walk in and do a three day training program and the third day is focused on abortion procedure risks and side effects for all the different stages of pregnancy and what is actually happening to your body.
Jacob Barr :
So yeah, so based on that, it seems reasonable for a crazy clinic willing to provide parenting information, adoption information, and information on abortion for someone to make an informed decision on what’s going to be best for them in the whole of their life maybe not just in the short term of their life. Based on that, it sounds like using the phrase pre abortion screening would align with services being offered.
Shawn Zierke :
Or even pre abortion counseling, because options counseling is exactly that.
Jacob Barr :
Ok, what’s the difference between screening, counseling and consultation like?
Shawn Zierke :
Screening in my mind denotes, yeah, sorry. Screening in my mind denotes eligibility requirements. Screening whether you are eligible to have an abortion. I mean, you could use it could stretch i mean, one are you really pregnant? I don’t know let’s get an ultrasound and find out if you have a viable pregnancy. Then screening would absolutely hold up but. In creating this relationship with these women through options, counseling, through giving them informed consent is what it is for Whatever their options are then you are I would screening seems so surface counseling is to me denotes a relationship that’s being created.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah so like is Yeah. Are you pregnant or were you pregnant? And then secondly, is it a viable pregnancy or did you have are you know did you have a miscarriage is what’s the does the baby have a heartbeat And so screening seems to align with that. And then yeah. And then counseling sounds more like are, you know, talking about the someone’s personal life and their mental state and their and their thoughts perhaps Or, yeah, maybe, you know, through encouragement and finding out where they are, you know, mentally might be part of that conversation and asking questions sure because.
Shawn Zierke :
We already know the implications of they if they choose any one of their options, the implications on the whole person are different, right? And so if you’re counseling someone, you’re and it’s patient centered care, you take into account the whole person, what’s going on in their family, what’s going on in their personal life, what’s going on in their mental health and their physical body, all of it.
Jacob Barr :
So what about consultation? How would you? So yeah, so I think, I think it makes sense that we’ve got screening and counseling. How would where would you place consultation on this spectrum of care or services being provided?
Shawn Zierke :
So if you think about a dermatology clinic or you go in for a surgical consult, right, you’re talking to a doctor about your surgical options. So consult in the medical community is the same as options counseling in the medical world.
Jacob Barr :
What about the implication that abortion screening pre abortion consultation or abortion counseling, which is an interesting phrase. What what’s what about the implication that shows where you’re going when it comes to the path you’re on and being that you know if there’s a two step, you know saying that we provide this infers or implies that we provide the next step or will provide you with directions next step. What about that implication?
Shawn Zierke :
So here’s where I absolutely agree with Carenet. I wouldn’t put abortion screening, abortion counseling or abortion consultation on my website.
Jacob Barr :
Ok.
Shawn Zierke :
I’m not an abortion provider. Would I use it in my marketing and my SEO my Google Adwords? You’re darn right I would.
Jacob Barr :
So would you say Google Adwords options?
Shawn Zierke :
Counseling i would say considering abortion. You need to have options counseling.
Jacob Barr :
Ok, so when it comes to Google, are you referring to the text that’s visible? Is that what you’re referring?
Shawn Zierke :
To well, you can put invisible text on your page too.
Jacob Barr :
What’s that again?
Shawn Zierke :
So you can put invisible text on your page.
Jacob Barr :
That’s true, but Google doesn’t treat it the same as visible text, or at least say.
Shawn Zierke :
It doesn’t, but you can also do a ghost landing page.
Jacob Barr :
An unlinked page that’s linked to a Google ad, that’s not linked to your navigation, that would be considered a landing page and that’s normal, that’s considered a page with you know sort of like a funnel where you have more control over where someone goes next, yes.
Shawn Zierke :
But then, and that’s where I would send them to be and use whatever words my users are going to respond to, because I want them coming to a pregnancy center and I don’t want them going to Planned Parenthood or another abortion provider. So there is a way to capture them. And the moment that they’re scrolling on their phone and doing a search when they’re in crisis and there is a way to be very clear about what you are providing for them and counseling, consultation, I don’t see if it were me, I don’t wouldn’t use the word screening, but I wouldn’t ban somebody from saying screening. I just don’t think that it conveys what pregnancy centers do.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, So there’s two parts to Google. I just want to clarify so and because a lot of people get these confused. So there’s the words that someone searches with like let’s say someone types in pre abortion screening and that would be considered a keyword that someone is searching on and within Google Ads, we’re able to target certain phrases like it could be the broad match for the word abortion, and then that would include pre abortion screening like that ‘d be an example of or if we actually could have the exact match of pre abortion screening. But that’s different than what the ad that shows up on that Google search result which is a text ad with a title a description and extensions and so in having relevance between the keyword, the text on the ad and the text on the page creates what’s called a high quality score when it comes to relevance, having all three being relevant to each other however. Well like for example here’s a you know we can have a competing brand in the keyword list so if someone searches for the competing brand name that’s allowed as a keyword that someone searches on, we may not have permission to have that brand name in our text in our ad. That can. There’s different, there’s different use cases there and then we also may or may not want to have that competing brand on the landing page. And so by default we’re going to have a lower quality score if we have it in the keyword but not in the text of the ad and not in the text of the page. And all that to say is, you know, having the phrase pre abortion screening would be a way to identify someone seeing this ad. But what’s more important for copyright or for word choice would be what shows up in that text of the ad or what shows up on our on our web page. And the text of the ad, like you said, it’s going to show up to the person doing the search. Meanwhile, the text, the landing page goes to a bigger audience when it comes to people being able to see what we stand for generally outside of, yeah, with the search and without the search. But all that to say is we yeah. So we’re trying to reach women who are shopping for an abortion because a life giving option to protect the image bearer that they have within them, that has an additional set of fingers, an additional set of toes, an additional heart, an additional brain, additional DNA is something that they need to know about. And the fact that the abortion industry does not show them the ultrasound, the abortion industry does not give them all of the true truth that they need to make a healthy, you know, joy filled long term decision. And really is just taking advantage of short term a short term crisis and taking advantage of the fact that they’re not thinking logically and not helping them regain logic right and for a price. While the pricey clinics are not charging a price and or helping them regain logic. Helping them understand what you know and 85 % will choose a healthier decision when presented with these options and have you know and helping regain capacity to think about their options what are your thoughts on helping someone regain their ability to consider their options like I I’ve heard one psychologist doctor lester said if you help someone you know spend more time through time someone regains logic or keeping someone in the counseling room helping them help them helping them find comfort. And he referred to using caffeine and chocolate as tools to help someone regain logic because it helps someone lower their stress it helps them relax and usually you don’t think of you know caffeine or chocolate as being a helpful tool but they are helpful for reducing stress in the moment and so anyways all of the things Feratonin. Yes increasing What was that again?
Shawn Zierke :
Feratonin, I believe.
Jacob Barr :
Oh, maybe, Yeah, that’s beyond my understanding but yeah so what are your thoughts on helping someone regain the ability to think what are your thoughts in that position?
Shawn Zierke :
So in a woman in crisis often wants to feel heard, understood and at the same time have boundaries. And so, and if you look at the largest proportion of women who are seeking abortion, that 18 to 28 year old, they are on their phones, right. And that’s why the telehealth, telemedicine abortion industry is booming because they capture them where they’re at with boundaries, answer their crisis the way that it was Googled on their phone or in Safari, right. And so the ability to counsel them and change their mind, you have to be able to do it in the media and platform that they’re on their phone in a chat, right, or in a video chat. And right now, there’s only one organization out there that’s doing that, and that’s infinite, worth twenty four seven nurse chat. And they are trained in the Ottawa Decision Making Guide to Counsel Women in Crisis where they’re at on their phone with sound information. They’re also a resource that women can and have gone back to get additional counseling days later, where the goal is for these nurses to get them to go into their pregnancy center that’s closest to them and have an ultrasound and meet with a counselor. It’s often that these women that reach out to a nurse on their phone are going back to talk to that nurse, whoever their whatever their name is, and ask for them because they created that connection, that ability to trust them. They felt heard in the moment that they were seeking help. And so, yeah, there’s a way to counsel them into changing their mind right where they’re at. So it doesn’t have to be face to face in a pregnancy center either.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, I do. Yeah, that resonates with me as being true that someone receives care by being heard and respected. And especially when it seems like women in these situations are often found. Yeah, but you know having someone who will listen and provide care is not is not a common variable i don’t think in these situations like it would be nice if it was, but it doesn’t seem like it is.
Shawn Zierke :
Yep and that’s where learning any options counselor, whether you’re in the pregnancy center or online or wherever you’re encountering these women, hearing what their needs are and their concerns are and being able to address and redirect so that they feel heard and affirmed, so that then they’re open to new information you may give them is all part of that process. And so I think that there are missed opportunities in the pregnancy center world for centers that are focused solely on abortion minded or abortion vulnerable likely to carries they won’t prioritize unfortunately. But, and it’s the same, in my opinion, for pregnancy centers that aren’t advertising and offering services for STD testing, I think that they’re missing an opportunity to create a relationship of trust in their community with women before their risky behaviors result in an unplanned pregnancy. Because if they’re concerned about having an STD, they’re engaged in the same exact behavior that could put them in the position of having an unplanned pregnancy. And so look at what the competition is doing to advertise and position themselves as the resource Planned Parenthood is in the school. They’re on the phones right there on social media advertising. Their Google Adwords are there they’re right popping up. When even the anticipatory ads, you know where you think that Facebook or Instagram has heard you in your home talking and then those ads pop up, they’re there. Pregnancy centers need to be there on their phone when the same concerns and words and behaviors are being talked about. And so this all, everything that I encourage pregnancy centers to do is good business advice. Know who your competition is. Who are they going after? Your customer your client, right, Your patient, the abortion minded, abortion, vulnerable, at risk woman, but they’re going after her before she’s at risk.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah. So about six or seven weeks ago, I went to every abortion clinic website that I could as part of a keyword research project. So I went to about 188 abortion clinic websites and I did collect all the keywords I was looking for but then I actually found about four things that I didn’t expect to find when doing that research and one of which, well one was the going way beyond just the Planned Parenthood. This is going I was looking at single office abortion clinics in a smaller county or normal sized county and I would say a high majority, maybe about 70 % i didn’t calculate it with data, but I would say a high majority were offering transgender services right there next to abortion. Many of them offered three things like abortion, transgender services, probably hormone blocks or hormone ads, probably not, but maybe surgical. And then lastly they had a third option that was that seemed relatively normal, like that was a very common set up for many of these clinics and so there’s a lot of thoughts to draw from that. So, yeah, but yeah, well, I mean that’s.
Shawn Zierke :
Planned Parenthood is diversifying their business model so that they can have multiple revenue streams and that complement that are complementary to their main agenda, right. So destroy the family, destroy women. Alter their hormones. Take away masculinity from men, alter their hormones, you all of these things work together for their ultimate agenda. So it doesn’t i mean and I’ve been hearing for a couple years that this is their new revenue stream is the hormone altering therapies and they for them that’s a complimentary business.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and it and it seems like the also feels like they’re bolstering their abortion industry or business with this leg, this supporting leg with the LGBTQ, you know essentially this strong support to try and not let the abortion table tip over. And then it also seems like if you replace someone’s yeah, essentially these are lifetime services these aren’t single round abortion is a single set for the most part, and these are ongoing services that someone will endure. I think for a lifetime. It also, it’s also making it so people can’t reproduce by altering their genitals. And if a man replaces his genitals with an open wound, I mean that’s a lifetime of care if someone’s getting hormone ads, that’s a lifetime of care, probably, if they wanted to continue.
Shawn Zierke :
And so it’s their business model, that’s their revenue plan.
Jacob Barr :
It’s also interesting that, you know, people who work at an abortion clinic are willing to do other procedures of the same ethical standard or same lack of morals and so right and it’s also interesting that pregnancy clinics are often located next to these abortion clinics. And it’s also interesting how sidewalk counseling. And pregnancy clinics are providing A healthier alternative for someone to walk into that abortion clinic to go somewhere healthier and better. And so to me, I feel like maybe in 1 2 years, maybe in less than two years but I would say like let’s say 14 months. Pregnancy clinics may start doing referrals to mental health counseling and psychological counseling for someone to take on these you know, these thoughts. And also it feels like the oh.
Shawn Zierke :
You’re talking about people taking the puberty altering drugs.
Jacob Barr :
Yes, yeah, blocks and ads and surgeries also, I think, yeah, it seems like that’s I think referrals to mental health. And then, but really in the end, I’ve been doing some research and trying to find if there’s a network of a psychologist or counselors that will help someone D transition, whether that means going from an LAGAB or AT to normalness or to towards Jesus or towards an H for hetero. It seems like there’s some laws being passed on blocking D transition and so having someone who will provide AD transition is not something to be assumed because it may it it’s it comes with it’s it comes with professional risk it sounds like.
Shawn Zierke :
Right so what we need are more mental health nurse practitioners that can look at the physical and mental health of these individuals. And we’re what? So that’s a need in a country where we already have a mental health provider shortage. I would absolutely love this next generation who absolutely adore Jesus that are on fire for God, waiting to hear what God has called them to do. Learn how to be a Christ centered mental health counselor that can then work in adjacent to, just as you’re suggesting, pregnancy health medical clinics that also offer mental health counseling i mean you have in Inverness, florida, you have Pregnancy and Family Life Center that has three mental health counselors on staff. One is a psychiatrist and two are counselors and they also have a USDA food pantry and they do STD testing and ultrasound and pregnancy tests by nurses. So they are trying to answer that need for their community, but they don’t have an abortion clinic in town you have to go to Tampa or Orlando for that so it’s an hour drive, but they live in a rural community where they are busy all the time. So for pregnancy centers to determine what is the need in their community, what is the how can they staff it, how do they need to recruit and to match the particular profile and culture of the community which they live, That’s a great business model. So being a pregnancy center in one city may mean different services and staff and abilities to serve the women that come to you versus in another community that maybe one’s urban versus rural one has abortion minded women that are 28 and older and have two kids already and they’re the ones looking for abortions because their husbands left them and they’re low income or there’s drug issues or domestic violence. Then you have a college town where you’ve got 18 to 24 year olds, the one in five that become pregnant in college and can’t remain in college or choose not to or choose to terminate versus remaining. I mean, so every pregnancy center based on their location has a different demographic that is predominant for them and having the services that serve those women and that profile is absolutely necessary i totally agree with you. That, and evolving to address the next frontier of the transgender issue, is something that pregnancy centers need to be thinking about in their strategic planning.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah And I think having identifying a counseling or psychologist who will counsel based on the rock of Jesus, more so on this shifting stands of culture is really important to find. And I believe and i expect that it’ll become there’ll be, there’ll be an increase in these referrals and then there’ll be and then yeah there’ll be a growing increase of people on staff providing that care. And I think the referrals will naturally come first because those are really a lot easier to start with And then as the need is shown and you know as the as the buy in grows I think then this in house services will become will start to grow. And i expect the in house services to be two plus years down the road as they start to grow and it’s exciting to hear some people have already or essentially blazing you know blazing new trails for people to follow but I expect people won’t be following for a while because it takes time to get to that spot and.
Shawn Zierke :
Yes, especially in the pregnancy center.
Jacob Barr :
So another thing that I found and I really want to share this with you because I want to hear your thoughts. So I came across a website calledtsthealth.com or.org probably.com I got to pull it up now, so I can be correct. yeah.org So TST Health stands for the Satanic Temple Health. And this is one of the abortion clinic. It’s actually based out of Salem, Pennsylvania, Salem somewhere. And it does all of its services in New Mexico it targets New Mexico. And I think that’s because Mexico has the least number of laws from my understanding, or a very low number of laws at least compared to other states. It’s not that they have pro abortion laws, they simply have a lack of laws in comparison to other states. All they have to say is that they’re targeting New Mexico is based off an East Coast EIN number or East Coast entity and it’s literally called the Satanic Temple and they do E Health all over the Internet and on their about page, they literally call it. On their about page, it says who is TST Health and what is the abortion ritual? And then down the page a bit and then it says, yeah, like, what is the Satanic Temple? But it’s interesting that is doing file.
Shawn Zierke :
Sacrifices to Malik, and they are monetizing child sacrifice.
Jacob Barr :
Claiming religious freedom to. Yeah, for their. So all that to say is that is one of our competitors and I believe their position not only in Mexico because of the lack of laws. It seems to me like it’s also because it’s next to Texas. And with Texas, I don’t know, it just feels like that’s part of that strategy for at least West texas Whereas yeah, the East Texas would probably go to Illinois I think. But all that to say is.
Shawn Zierke :
Are they sorry? Are they in Las Cruces?
Jacob Barr :
Well, no, it’s E Health, so I don’t think it’s.
Shawn Zierke :
Ok, so they’re wherever.
Jacob Barr :
Isn’t that targeting a specific city, I don’t think?
Shawn Zierke :
Ok.
Jacob Barr :
It might be actually, now that I think about it might have said Las Cruces let me go back to their.
Shawn Zierke :
If it is, then I already know who’s in the fight against them. It just says that you start Southwest.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah it does not say what part of New Mexico so yeah, that was an interesting finding. Just the fact that we have a competitor who’s literally called the Satanic Temple, that was something I did not expect to find. Another one that I did not expect to find was a website based out of Texas that’s describing how to make a how to take the second pill of the abortion pill regiment that expels the baby and how to liquefy it. Exactly. And how to put it onto a business card and then letting it dry. And then with instructions on how to let someone they put into a Mylar bag put it in places like schools, churches, places where books go, places where we can have paper in a Mylar bag. And then the idea was to show people how to make their own and to distribute it with the idea is, yeah, it’s just it almost, it almost seemed unreal. But it’s not. It actually is real. It’s it seemed like a parody at first the fact that someone would do that, like a really bad parody. And anyways, yeah, that was a website I also came across looking for all of the abortion clinical websites I could find. And the idea is that, yes, essentially putting that liquid onto a business card and then there’s a there’s a drawing of a these quadrant so someone could cut it out, put that piece of paper into their mouth, let it dissolve over an hour, and then repeating it several times to essentially.
Shawn Zierke :
They’re basically do it yourself side attack at home and they also insert it into themselves vaginally and then or put it on the inside of their mouth, the buccal mucosa.
Jacob Barr :
This one was doing for the inside, having one piece on the left, one piece on the right and leaving it there for an hour for the contents to fully dissolve off the paper.
Shawn Zierke :
Did it have the dosing is it 400 micrograms?
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, that’s what it was did.
Shawn Zierke :
It did have.
Jacob Barr :
That, yeah, So and it was repeating so that is.
Shawn Zierke :
Actually the yeah so that’s the misopristol protocol misopristol only protocol that they are trying to do in states where RU four eighty six is banned or mytho the mythopristone is banned. And so again what they’re doing is putting women who are pregnant at risk for uterine rupture and they can bleed out or because they didn’t take the RU four eighty six they will deliver a live 12 week old 13 week old. I mean, I’ve seen PDFs from Planned Parenthood on how to take the misopristal only up to 24 weeks. So you think of delivering a six month old child in your dorm room on your own that’s fully alive. You just induced delivery. Oh, you did?
Jacob Barr :
And essentially, yeah and it’s going to. And essentially where, yeah, they’re putting these into places where people can find them. So there’s they don’t even know who’s going to pick them up. You don’t know who made it yeah. And then the one of the last findings that I came across was that there were a lot of funding websites, a lot i did not expect it to be like 80 ish funding website.
Shawn Zierke :
Travel Abortion.
Jacob Barr :
There were funding websites per state and per and per foundation. A lot of states had a funding site and a lot not all states i don’t i wouldn’t say all states, but several States and a lot of foundations.
Shawn Zierke :
Funding for what specific?
Jacob Barr :
Abortion to essentially allow someone to either apply for funds to cover their procedure or abortion decision or for someone to donate and pay pay for someone else’s as a way of financing and supporting this. Yeah, that was a lot there i didn’t see. I have not come across that before in previous years yeah but it’s interesting though when you when you talk about, yeah, the E Health, how, Yeah, The Satanic Temple has, yeah, they have fully embraced because it’s someone on the East group out of the East Coast who’s formed out of the East Coast at least Who knows if they actually live there maybe they live in New Mexico, but they’re literally targeting New Mexico i believe they’re targeting New Mexico because it’s the less it has the least amount of risk for them. That’s my gut talking. I think that’s.
Shawn Zierke :
Why i’d have to go through and see what states they’re functioning in and see if they have certificates of authority in those states, if they’re receiving money to operate and yeah.
Jacob Barr :
Anyway, that’s, you know, they.
Shawn Zierke :
Have licensed staff.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, I don’t know that’s a good. Those are good questions. Yeah, because when I hear E Health, it makes me think that someone from anywhere could take that service but what you’re saying is, it sounds like someone has to have, yeah, you can’t just, you can’t connect with a Medical Group Anywhere you need to have.
Shawn Zierke :
So some.
Jacob Barr :
States authority.
Shawn Zierke :
You have to have a telehealth medicine license or telehealth license some states, some states if it’s nurse only level care then they can be part of the nursing compact if they’re not a compact state but there are some states that you can have a nurse under the compact doing telehealth, but the physician that’s supervising the work they’re doing understanding orders, has to be licensed in the state in which the patient is receiving health care or telehealth advice and so there’s a difference between telemedicine, telehealth and telecare, by the way, which is a whole nother discussion.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, And then I know you know the difference. And even though I’ve heard you say it before, I still don’t know the difference but.
Shawn Zierke :
That’s OK so telemedicine, yeah.
Jacob Barr :
Ok, go ahead yeah, me as well. That ‘d be good content OK.
Shawn Zierke :
So telemedicine is when you have a physician or a nurse practitioner or PA under the level or a doctor of osteopathy that is diagnosing, treating and following up on patient care interactions over telecommunication pathways, so the Internet, telephone and so on. So the FCC makes these definitions. Telehealth is typically nursing level social work, psychological care, counseling and education of a patient in making health decisions, learning about health information, that’s telehealth and then telecare is remote monitoring of health information so whether you have a patient with remote blood pressure monitoring or their weight and then their weight and their blood pressure goes to their doctor every day or their blood sugar is remote monitored by their physician’s office, Telecare can also be your CPAP machine. And all that information that’s transmitted to your sleep doctor that manages that or respiratory therapist, whoever is managing those for you, that’s telecare so there’s three different levels that makes sense and you have to be very clear, yes.
Jacob Barr :
So what happens when someone is on the West side of Texas and they contact this group in New Mexico and then travel? Would they have to travel to New Mexico to receive care, even though it’s being provided E health from someone out of the East Coast to New Mexico? They must, Yeah like what does that?
Shawn Zierke :
Happen like no, Because in Texas, i can tell you what it says in Texas i have it right here let’s pull up Texas. There it is, Texas, before I misspeak.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, because I feel like this is some people think that abortions dropped off by 99 % after Dobbs or after the Heartbeat Bill. But yeah, I think in reality a lot of people are traveling to the edges of Texas to AI think that’s more likely where?
Shawn Zierke :
So I in Texas they issue a telemedicine license for out of state providers and to qualify for this out of state telemedicine license, there’s a lot of hoops to jump through, not the least of which is having passed the Texas Medical Jurisprudence Examination. Then their limits on providing out of state telemedicine practice across state lines is really limited to interpretation of diagnostic testing and reporting so you can. I mean, if you’re a pregnancy center in Texas and you want to have a radiologist in a different state read your scans, they can have this telemedicine license issued to an out of state practitioner to read all of your pregnancy center scans. But if you’re treating and practicing, you must possess a full Texas medical license, which means you’re subject to the legislative code in the state of Texas with regard to abortion and the heartbeat bill and all the penalties that go with it. So they couldn’t do their E Health practice treating from any other state patients who are residing and are physically in Texas when they receive this telehealth or telemedicine service without having a Texas license, which means they’re subject to Texas laws, which means they’re subject to Texas penalties. Now, if these women drive to New Mexico and contact them, that’s different, because in New Mexico, OK, they also issue a licensed physician a telemedicine license to allow the practice of medicine across state lines to an applicant who holds a full and unrestricted license in a different state. They don’t have the same hoops to jump through. They can also give them a temporary provisional license and then they are subject to the New Mexico Medical Board statute and the statutes of that state. So all they have to be is good standing in the state that they’re in. Same with social workers and nurses.
Jacob Barr :
Interesting. Well, I really appreciate you being on here today, Sean. This was another good conversation.
Shawn Zierke :
Sure, what? Probably didn’t go over too many people’s heads.
Jacob Barr :
No, this is this is good i think this is something that Franklin Clinic directors and leadership and boards really need to consider because this is where we are this is the, you know, the post row. We’re we’re in a new era where people travel across state lines and where people we’re, you know, we’re fighting. There’s, you know, the fight has shifted in different ways. There’s new attacks on word choice. You know, our opposition’s trying to pass misinformation laws. They’re trying to, you know, essentially require us to be quiet or require us to not be effective. And through laws and legislation and really, we’re fighting for image. You know people who are created in the image of God who reflect the image of God and their moms reflect the image of God the dad and we’re fighting for people to yeah to find joy to find really to find Jesus that’s it’s not it’s not Jesus plus really in the end that’s the goal line is Jesus by himself and in order to be connected with relationship with God and so anyways thank you for being on here and sharing and talking and taking on these hard topics.
Shawn Zierke :
Let’s talk about state pregnancy center coalitions next time we talk I.
Jacob Barr :
Like that that ‘d be good we’ll do that.
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