Listen to Mark Lippelmann and Jacob Barr talk about how ADF defends life in the new Dobbs era.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and I recently had an insightful conversation with Mark Lippelmann from Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) on the Pro-Life Team Podcast. Our discussion focused on the legal landscape following the overturning of Roe v. Wade and the emergence of the Dobbs era, particularly concerning the defense of pregnancy clinics and navigating abortion laws across different states.
Mark, a senior counsel at ADF, shared about their efforts in protecting unborn life, which includes defending pro-life laws and supporting those who have conscientious objections to providing or referring for abortions. He expressed optimism about the legal outlook post-Dobbs, emphasizing the newfound freedom for states to legislate on abortion matters.
We delved into the challenges of addressing abortion laws across 50 states. Mark highlighted ADF’s strategy in prioritizing states with trigger laws or contingent laws that became effective post-Dobbs. He cited cases in North Carolina and Arizona where ADF has been actively involved in defending laws that protect life at different gestation periods.
An interesting aspect of our conversation was around pre-Roe laws that were being reinstated in some states, like Arizona, and how abortion advocates are challenging these laws. Mark also discussed the complexities surrounding the illegal shipment of abortion drugs into pro-life states, a practice that violates federal and state laws.
We touched on the crucial role of pregnancy centers in providing holistic support to women, contrasting this with the abortion industry’s approach. Mark stressed the importance of making abortion not just illegal but unthinkable, highlighting the need for comprehensive care for women, children, and families.
The conversation with Mark was enlightening, shedding light on the legal intricacies of defending life in the post-Roe era and the vital work of pregnancy centers in offering true support and choices to women.
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#ProLifeLegalBattle, #AllianceDefendingFreedom, #PostRoeEra, #DobbsDecision, #ProtectingUnbornLife, #DefendingPregnancyCenters, #AbortionLawChallenges, #StateAbortionLegislation, #LifeAt15Weeks, #LifeAt20Weeks, #FightingForLife, #IllegalAbortionDrugs, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #ComprehensiveWomenCare, #AbortionDebate, #MakingAbortionUnthinkable, #SupportingLifeChoices, #ProLifeMovement, #ADFInAction, #LegalDefenseForLife.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Jacob Barr :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m Jacob Barr i’m here with Mark Lippelmann and we’re going to be talking about Alliance Defending Freedom and the work that Mark and his team are doing to try and well trying to defend Tracy Clinics and trying to help us navigate abortion and across 50 states as we’re in a new era that is now post row and in the Dobbs era. So Mark, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. Would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a small group of Prancy clinic leadership?
Mark Lippelmann :
Teams. Yeah, absolutely thank you, Jacob, for having me it’s nice to talk to everyone so my name is Mark Lippelman. I’m a senior counsel here at Alliance Defending Freedom. I’ve worked on a church and litigation, a church litigation team, but a couple years ago was privileged to join our Center for Life, which is AD FS operation that protects unborn life. That includes efforts to overturn Roe, which we recently saw protecting and defending pro-life laws around the country, but also protecting and defending those on the front lines who are doing this important work so that includes pregnancy centers. It includes physicians and healthcare workers who have conscientious objections to providing or referring for abortions, especially in states that require that. And so we’re privileged to do all of that work it includes, you know, free exercise. It includes free speech. There’s so many elements to it, but it really is the most important work that we can do.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome so what are your thoughts on the legal outlook that we are currently in when it comes to being in a post well, essentially with Roe being overturned and Dobbs being the new, yeah, the new Dobbs era, what are your thoughts on our current legal outlook?
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, there is so much to be hopeful and thankful for, and there’s still challenges ahead. But the Supreme Court’s decision in Dobbs was such a monumental and tremendous victory, not only for unborn children but for pregnant women and for those who serve them. And so this the Supreme Court rightly held that the Constitution simply does not and never did include a right to kill innocent human life. And so it it’s very important and wonderful that now states are free to have these conversations that they’ve been impeded from having for decades and they can do what they can and what people and their elected representatives have clearly intended to do in protecting unborn life and also going out of their way to serve women who find themselves in difficult situations.
Jacob Barr :
So, yeah and so the, yeah, so now we have 50 states for you know, for ADF and for legal groups to consider. How have you prioritized or how have you decided where to spend your time and how to keep up with all of the different? I guess, yeah, States and state laws.
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, That’s a good question so it’s both a blessing and a curse that the issue goes back to the states and so all of a sudden like you said, there are 50 jurisdictions. We even see municipalities will pass ordinances. And so it gets you know very granular and so we’re looking all the time at new laws that are being proposed, even ordinances proposed in certain municipalities. But you know, it was easy in the beginning because there are a number of states that had laws on the books. They’re called trigger laws or contingent laws and they basically said if Roe versus Wade is overruled or if the states are ever permitted to address abortion again, then this is what we would want to happen and they would have some life, you know, protecting provisions and so when the Supreme Court issued A stubs decision overturning Roe, a lot of these laws just came into effect automatically and then abortion advocates sued and said they were unconstitutional either under the state constitutions or something like that so our work was cut out from us from the very beginning just defending some of those laws. And also there are laws that were on the books to protect life, but that had been enjoined or blocked from being enforced under Roe. And with Roe gone, there’s now no longer any impediment and so we were able to go into some of these States and file motions and briefs and successfully revive and resurrect these laws that help to protect human life.
Jacob Barr :
So which areas are you currently working on or do you feel like you yeah, you feel empowered to be able to speak, speak to?
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, well, one really great example, recently the people of North Carolina passed a law protecting life at 20 weeks gestation, which that’s a modest law considering other things out there, it’s significantly more modest than the law of the Supreme Court itself upheld in the Dobbs decision, which was the Mississippi law protecting life at 15 weeks. And so that North Carolina law had been blocked from being enforced under Roe. And then when Dobbs was issued and Roe is no longer an impediment, we’re thinking, OK, we’ll the people wanted this the representatives voted for it and passed it. But it’s still enjoined and the attorney general there was unwilling to act for political reasons to revive the law and so Alliance Defending Freedom was privileged to work with some legislators to file some briefs and sure enough, the court ruled that there’s no longer an impediment that can keep that law from being enforced. So that happened there in my home state of the state of where I’m at now in Arizona. Alliance Defending Freedom was privileged to participate in that case as well, helping to protect or to defend our a law that defends life at 15 weeks gestation and even another pre Roe law that protected life completely.
Jacob Barr :
So, so you’re in Arizona. So it seems like Arizona has had a bit of we’ve had a lot of changes in Arizona recently where after Roe in Pima County there was the law from I’m not sure if it was 1860 or 19 one, I’ve heard both being cited. Can you tell me, tell us the story about the law from over over 100 years ago and what you know and where we might have gone since then?
Mark Lippelmann :
Sure well, this is a story we’re seeing in states across the country and so in general, States and people and the Supreme Court cites this history in the Dobbs decision itself going back to common law in England that the States and the colonies adopted. There have just been laws in every state protecting life it’s an unbroken chain of trying to protect life to the greatest degree possible and so that was the case in Arizona, just as an example. Even before Arizona was a state, it had territorial laws that protected life. You know once it became a state, they protected life all the way up until Roe in the seventies they wanted to protect life and even after then they would pass laws and say you know we want to protect life to the greatest degree possible. And so the law that was just the state of the law in Arizona. Then leading up to the Dobbs decision, Arizona passed a new statute, a new law that protected life at 15 weeks gestation but specifically said, you know we want to protect life completely and nothing about this fifteen week protection should be read to surpass or eclipse the law that protects life completely to the extent that’s able to be upheld. And so, of course, abortion advocates sued and said, hey, the state constitution, you know, now that there’s no federal right to abortion as recognized by the Supreme Court in Dobbs, they’re saying, oh, maybe maybe the state constitution of Arizona protects the right to abortion, even though it’s nowhere mentioned. And even though the people of Arizona have consistently rejected abortion at all times, they were able. And so we’re seeing that story happen across the country in different states. And so, yeah, it’s an it’s an interesting thing to follow, a very interesting time to be part of this work yeah.
Jacob Barr :
It seems like, yeah so I think it was 2 weeks ago when that law from, well, eighteen hundreds eighteen sixty or nineteen O one whichever it was, when that law ended up being enacted in Pima County. And then it sounds like a few days ago it might have been, might have had an injunction placed on it, I’m not quite sure. But when it comes to one of those older laws being reinstated is the opposition. Are they sometimes placing an injunction by a judge to try and like stop enforcement of one of those laws is that something that’s happening?
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah so all across the country as soon as a pro-life law goes into effect, abortion advocates will strike and they’ll file a lawsuit and they’ll say, hey, our state constitutional right, we want the court to find or manufacture a state constitutional right to abortion since they can no longer look to the federal constitution. And so they’ll ask a court for an injunction or which is essentially just an order that prevents enforcement of the law. And so in Arizona, even though the courts have upheld and allowed enforcement of pro-life laws, we’re seeing abortion advocates, they just will refuse to take a loss and we’ll try to work around that and so one example that is pretty grotesque that we’re seeing is abortion providers and clinics and doctors in California and other states are providing telehealth appointments to people in Arizona, having them go get an ultrasound and then prescribing them abortion drugs and shipping those drugs to a California border, a border town between California and Arizona. And then advising the patient to drive to the border town, take the first pill that starts the process and then drive back to Arizona and take the second pill that will likely complete the process, kill the child and end the pregnancy and so that’s unconstitutional it’s a violation of Arizona law in multiple ways, but we’re seeing a lot of efforts to circumvent pro-life laws in that way.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah the whole idea of once they supporting and you know, an action that’s illegal in another state seems to be what California is doing in several states currently.
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, that’s right and oh, go ahead.
Jacob Barr :
No that was it yeah what are your thoughts on that?
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, I mean, that’s a difficulty with different states addressing this issue and having this conversation. But you know, we’re also finding things many people, even the in the pro-life community weren’t aware of just because Roe and Casey kept us from being able to protect life in many cases and so a really good example there is there are multiple laws on the books, federal laws that prohibit the shipping, mailing, international movement or Interstate movement of abortion drugs. That’s just prohibited by federal law. But those laws weren’t enforced while Roe and Casey were in effect. Now that they’re not in effect, you know, these books the laws are still on the books they shouldn’t be. These drugs should not be sent and as you likely know, abortion drugs are counting every year they make up more and more of the number of abortions that are occurring. And this is the situation where people are trying to ship abortion drugs into states that have protected life. So essentially trying to use the anonymity of postal mail or of UPS or any a common carrier in order to circumvent and get abortion into states that protect life. And so, yeah, we’re seeing a lot of efforts in a lot of ways where abortion advocates are trying to be creative to circumvent the law, but it’s very clear that that’s unlawful both at a federal and state level.
Jacob Barr :
So as you were saying that, I’m just imagining if there’s like a, if there’s been like a pro-life sting operation when it comes to ordering the abortion drug from these people who are selling them online in order to have it shipped to a state where it’s illegal. And I’m wondering if the post office would be able to like, you know, put a block on certain mail from certain, because that ‘d be pretty hard i guess they could drop it off in a public. Yeah, like it’s hard to It’s actually pretty hard to stop Mail from a certain.
Mark Lippelmann :
Source That’s a hard.
Jacob Barr :
Thing to do I guess it’s really hard to enforce the law that’s saying don’t mail these drugs. I mean the same thing would be true for like any illegal substances that would cross borders and I want it’s just I guess it, I guess that someone did order the abortion pill from these sources and then it arrived then they could possibly have a lawsuit. But then again there’s other countries involved or it’s across state lines at least but probably more other countries. What are the possible responses legally to someone who is shipping drugs illegally? Would it be a civil action or possibly other actions that could be taken?
Mark Lippelmann :
Well, I mean that is that’s kind of the frontier of where things are happening right now and so those are those are issues that we and others are looking into. But I mean we know as you mentioned you know illegal drugs are shipped and either the Postal Service or others US like borders and customs are able to stop some of that and so it is possible i know i mean I know it presents some difficulties but it is possible and I mean sometimes there are women who you know i’ve known of a situation where someone ordered the drugs was able to get them in a state that doesn’t allow abortion and decided you know I don’t want to go through with this and told you know a pro-life advocate and they ‘d look you know shared this story that it is possible and it is happening that these drugs are being shipped into pro-life states.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, It’s just it seems very frustrating because that’s the number. Well, I think it’s more than half of all abortions are the medic, the medication version of the, you know, using the abortion pill or are you 46 compared to the surgical abortion procedure. And it seems like the laws are really are good at stopping or preventing or greatly slowing the surgical abortions from taking place, but the medicated abortions are more difficult to restrict.
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah absolutely and like I said there are laws on the books that make that non mailable and makes it a criminal offence to ship them and so that is some that’s one thing that we know that the federal government can do is enforce its own laws on the books and so that that’s A at a minimum something that I’d like them to do.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah what happens when that abortion pill is being shipped from another country? Is there any response outside of civil action and what does civil action look like in that scenario?
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah so we do know that one of the biggest providers of abortion pills in the United States, it’s an organization called Aid Access so there’s an abortion advocate doctor in Austria, Vienna, Austria and she’s been an abortion advocate in Europe and elsewhere in the world, but set up this aid access organization to try to get abortion drugs more available in the United States. And so she prescribes from Vienna, Austria and pharmacy in another country, then ships to the United States. I mean that’s not only a violation of the laws that I meant the criminal laws that I mentioned before that we have in the United States but it may implicate even international treaties and things like that and so it becomes a complicated issue. But in terms of, you know, there are, there are criminal laws and also, I mean sometimes there are complications when women have, when they take these abortion pills, there can be bleeding there can be other complications. And as I mentioned in the case with a California Doctor Who hasn’t, you know, an Arizona resident pick up the drugs on the border and then take them home and take them without supervision. I mean, it’s just dangerous for women it shows. I mean, it’s a stark reminder that not only is there no care or consideration of the unborn child, but that the abortion advocates aren’t really caring as much for the women and their health and safety. But they’re not, you know, they’re not making sure that they’re OK that there are no complications etcetera.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and without the in person care, who’s to say that the, you know, it’s, you know, the woman who’s calling or ordering it is the one who’s actually taking it. There’s a lot of unknowns when it comes to remote care and million things overseas without any actual client relationship.
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah and I mean, this highlights 1 area that I did want to mention, which this is not only, I mean, we’re trying to protect life, but it’s also a good reminder not just to make abortion illegal, but to make it unthinkable and for the pro-life cause, to show how much more we care about children and women and families, even, you know, the father is in the situation than the abortion advocates do. And so that’s why we’re trying to help those who are on the front lines helping women, including pregnancy centers and so you we’ve seen a concerted effort across the country, especially in a few states like Connecticut and Massachusetts, Pennsylvania to shut down completely or to muzzle pregnancy centers and you know, it’s like, well, if we can, if we can shut down. Those who are simply trying to hand out diapers, car seats, you know, those who are there just to say, hey, we’re here with you don’t have to do this alone there’s plenty of help for you. They want even those people, volunteers, to be shut down. And so it’s a stark reminder of, you know, this is the time for us to step up and help and to show how different we are and how much we care about children and women.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, i equate it to like the anti smoke, anti smoking campaign which might say, you know, we are here to try and help you stop smoking and to avoid smoking because of the harms that come from it. I feel like the pregnancy clinic movement is much is very similar to that by trying to help people who have had an abortion find hope and healing helping those who are seeking one to find a decision that they’re going to appreciate for decades and to avoid the damage and the harm that can that’s irreversible from an abortion. And so I think yeah essentially trying to help people find true health complete health not just for themselves but for their offspring and for their families. It’s just it’s holistic it’s whole a whole women health whole men health and I just feel like the abortion is a tool to destroy well the life giving Tracy clinics and pro-life friends are promoting healthy decisions and healthy lifestyles and you know long term healthy decision.
Mark Lippelmann :
That’s absolutely right and so Alliance Spending Freedom has there’s one case that we are forced to file in the state of Connecticut where you know we are proud to represent a pregnancy center there who is operating helping women and children daily. And then Connecticut passes a law that it it’s basically aimed at muzzling and chilling the speech of pregnancy centers. And so they say if you say something that we deem to be misinformation about abortion, you know, if you characterize the risks of abortion in a way that they think is wrong, then they’ll call you deceptive and they’ll shut you down they’ll penalize you. And so, Well, while that bill was being proposed, somebody asked the question, hey, here’s a flyer it says, are you pregnant, do you need help, question mark. And they said, is that deceptive for a pregnancy center to offer help with a pregnancy if the help that they provide doesn’t include abortion? And the attorney general who’s supposed to be enforcing that law is like, oh, yes, that’s deceptive. And so clearly just simple statements that are out there to try to provide help and even simple resources to women for free, you know, they’re trying to shut those people down.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, i feel like women feel like they have no choice and that abortion is their only choice because of the way that things are set up. And I don’t think Planned Parenthood is pushing choice. I think they’re pushing abortion. And I think Prezi clinics are looking to help people make an informed decision that will be a choice that they will appreciate for years to come and generations to come.
Mark Lippelmann :
Yeah, that’s absolutely right and so the pregnancy centers that I’ve represented, that I’ve been in contact with, you know, they don’t shy away from the fact that abortion is one of several options that a woman has in that situation, You know, but they give full and complete facts about the risks that are involved, the reality involved that there is a unique human being that they aren’t considering whether to become apparent that they already are apparent. You know, those just those simple realities. But those are precisely the realities that abortion advocates like you said they pro-choice is a is a poor moniker. Because the choice to keep in your child and become a parent and accept free help from the community who’s standing there ready to help, that that’s a choice that they would prefer that we not make.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome well, Mark, I really enjoyed talking with you and I appreciate your time and your intellect and also really appreciate you working so hard and diligently to support life and uphold Prancy Clinics and Freedom so that we can continue to work towards a more, well work towards having abortion become unthinkable in the future absolutely so thank you so much for being on here.
Mark Lippelmann :
Today yeah thank you it’s the most fundamental right we have it’s the right on which everything else hinges and it’s the most important work we can do. So thank you to you and to all your listeners too for all the work that you do on this important ’cause.
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