Listen to Mike Spencer and Jacob Barr talk about thoughs and ideas surrounding the church’s response to abortion.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and I recently had a profound conversation with Mike Spencer on the Pro-Life Team Podcast about the church’s response to abortion. Mike leads Project Life Voice, a ministry dedicated to equipping pro-life ambassadors. He shared his journey from a non-religious upbringing to becoming a pastor and then stepping into pro-life advocacy. He emphasized the importance of the church’s role in addressing abortion as a gospel issue and debunking myths that lead to silence in churches.
Mike highlighted the need for pastors to be courageous in speaking about abortion, balancing boldness with grace and compassion. He debunked the notion that churches shouldn’t involve themselves in “political” issues like abortion, affirming that it’s a matter of moral and spiritual urgency. We discussed the challenges of addressing abortion in the context of rape and the life of the mother, stressing the importance of empathy and moral clarity in these complex situations.
Mike also addressed the accusation that the pro-life movement doesn’t care about mothers and children post-birth, emphasizing the extensive work of nearly 3,000 pregnancy care centers across the U.S. He talked about the current political battle in Ohio regarding an abortion ballot initiative and his work with Together for Life Ohio to mobilize churches against it.
In conclusion, Mike led a prayer, asking for God’s guidance and strength in the fight for life and the safety of children in Ohio amidst legislative challenges.
Hashtags:
#ProjectLifeVoice, #ChurchAndAbortion, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #GospelAndLife, #CourageousPastors, #AbortionMythsDebunked, #EmpathyInProLife, #MoralClarity, #CareForMothersAndChildren, #PoliticalBattleForLife, #OhioProLifeMovement, #TogetherForLifeOhio, #PrayerForLife
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Mike Spencer :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m Mike Spencer and I’m here with Jacob today and we’re going to talk about the church’s response to abortion. We’re so glad you’ve joined us.
Jacob Barr :
So Mike, I’m glad to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a handful of executive directors of pregnancy clinics who may not know you as of yet?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, no, I’m glad to do that so yeah, my name is Mike Spencer and I lead a ministry called Project Life Voice. This is a gospel driven human rights ministry that equips and inspires pro-life ambassadors to speak intelligently and to act sacrificially on behalf of the most oppressed and marginalized among us, our pre born neighbors and their young moms and dads. And so I do that in a variety of settings i do that in high schools, university settings, workshops, conferences. I do a lot of banquet speaking for pregnancy care centers and a lot of churches as well in fact it really in the last couple of years I’ve done an awful lot of work speaking in pastors, luncheons and breakfasts and things like that typically that’s at the morning after I’ve spoken at a banquet a lot of times the center that brings me in will host of Pastors Breakfast that I’ll speak at as well. So but basically my work is equipping pro-life ambassadors to speak confidently and graciously to this issue.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome yeah tell us about Project Life Voice. Tell us what that is and where you’re at today and how it got started.
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, well, I served in pastoral roles for 23 years and about 12 years ago I stepped away because I was invited to serve on the teaching staff of Life Training Institute with Scott Klusendorf, which I did for eight years and that was a wonderful experience that opened all kinds of doors for me that would not have opened otherwise. But about 3 plus years ago I stepped away to start Project Life Voice and again, this is a gospel driven ministry that equips and inspires pro-life ambassadors but in short, what I’m doing is i’m trying to awaken the church and equip the church, particularly pastors, although that’s not the majority of my work, but it’s a strong emphasis of my work is equipping and encouraging pastors to speak up. So and again I do that in, you know, a variety of settings as I’ve already shared so, and I’ve been doing this now for, yeah, about three years so and travel all over the United States and even beyond when I’m invited to do so.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome. So tell us about your origin story of, you know, getting into the pro-life work and the pro-life world. What did that look like and yeah, how did you get what was your, you know, the first Domino’s into this new adventure?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, well, so I was raised in a really good home. It was not a Christian home, per southeast. My parents did come to faith in Christ later in. Well, my dad and my, I guess my middle school years, my mom not until I graduated from high school but I sort of just absorbed not having been raised in the church or anything like that i sort of just absorbed the kind of the classical so-called pro-choice position. I wasn’t rabidly pro-choice i don’t remember ever arguing it or debating it with anybody. Frankly, I didn’t care that much about it but I think I was like a lot of Americans. I knew abortion was wrong. I knew it was a bad thing. But like a lot of Americans, I saw it as a necessary evil. But all of that changed for me in actually just into 1984 in 1983 when I was 21 years old, I came to faith in Christ. And that of course was, you know, changed everything for me. And the church that I started attending in the Detroit area, Detroit area where I grew up showed the film One Wednesday Night, The Silent Scream, which I know you and I’m sure many of your listeners are familiar with. But that was a film that had been produced by former abortionist who became pro-life and became Catholic and that was Bernard Nathanson and he actually in this film The Silent Scream you actually saw an ultrasound guided abortion. And I saw that on a Wednesday night i walked into that church on a Wednesday night not having any idea what was, you know, planned for the evening. But about an hour and a half or so later, I walked out, Forever changed because that night I saw with my own eyes for the very first time what abortion did to little boys and girls and Jacob i couldn’t believe it i absolutely couldn’t believe it that was just a huge game changer for me so it was just a radical transformation that night i left that church that evening asking God to forgive me, that I ever thought that this was OK. So as I said earlier, I did go on to serve and pastoral roles, but my burden for the unborn and for their young moms and dads just continued to grow and as I, you know, traveled in evangelical circles, I saw so few pastors who are willing to speak out boldly and redemptively to this issue and that only caused my burden to grow even more. And then in years later when I was in I was pastoring a church in Fort Wayne indiana and through my involvement in the pro-life community there i was pastoring and very engaged in the pro-life community there i met a young man named Tim and Tim had actually lifted a little baby girl who had been aborted at about four and a half five months of gestation and her he had lifted her body from a dumpster behind an abortion clinic again in my hometown in the in Detroit with the intention of giving her a proper burial, which he did but in the meantime, my wife Barbara and I saw that little one and actually held her on a cloth diaper in our hands. And you know, like you and I’m sure like those listening who are pro-life you know, we hear the rhetoric from the other side, My body, my choice, you know, don’t like abortion, don’t have one every child to want a child and so forth. But when you hold in your hands a precious little image bearer, this little girl whose, you know, body is perfectly formed, she was again aborted by a saline solution abortion so she was, her body was not dismembered. It was perfectly intact, although she had been, you know, severely burned by that solution. But to see that beautiful little life and to see it extinguished, to see, you know, this lifeless child, to hold that child in your hands, it really causes all of the cliches and all of the sloganeering that we hear from the other side to really disintegrate under the weight of that child. So it was experiences like this that just really profoundly impacted me and it really shaped my pro-life convictions, so.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I’m and I read parts of that story you just shared in your book, Humanly speaking and can you tell us, yeah, who’s this book for and well, and it seems like it’s one of the main audiences is the church, you know, the pastor, the churchgoer. Can you speak to that connection and how that book is written for that for this desired audience?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, no, I’m glad to do that so the book, again, as you said, is titled, Humanly speaking in the subtitle is The Evil of Abortion, The Silence of the Church and the Grace of God and I’m really focusing on those 3 themes in the book. It really is, at least I intended it to be and I think it is kind of an expose on the silence of the church, but also challenging. It was not a book written to pastors it’s written to Christians in general, but it certainly has great relevancy for pastors, for shepherds. And really what I wanted to do was help people see their response, our Christian response to abortion as a gospel issue, a loving your neighbor as yourself issue. And so I make that case in the book and then I also debunk a lot of the excuses really and a lot of the myths that have caused so many churches to go silent have caused so many pastors to sort of self censor and so yeah it’s it really and then really ultimately it’s a call to the church to speak and to act on behalf of the pre warned in a God honoring way.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah. And yeah, my experience with church is that, you know, I have a desire for abortion to be addressed much more than it is to be addressed from the pulpit to be. And usually my experience seems to be that it’s brought up in small circles, maybe not from the pulpit, but what are your thoughts on, you know, why do you think so many churches are silent on abortion and can you speak to like you know, the pulpit silence, as well as maybe the communication, shame, silence.
Mike Spencer :
Yeah so on the, on the first part of that, you said the pulpit silence let me, let me speak to that. Well, there are there are obviously a variety of reasons why churches are silent on the subject of abortion. One of the reasons is a fear. I think a lot of shepherds, a lot of church leaders have a fear that if they speak out on this, they’re going to lose their tax exemption or they fear that, you know, this is going to look too political, it’s going to divide the church or they fear that they’re going to heap more abuse or more guilt on those who have had abortions or have been responsible for them. So I think fear is a really big motivator i say a motivator, A motivator for churches to remain silent. Ignorance is another one. I think a lot of shepherds are, well, let me restate that I don’t think a lot of shepherds are i think there are some shepherds who are really unaware of just how profoundly abortion is impacting their pastoral ministry and impacting their church. And I say i kind of qualified my kind of requalified my statement there because I know I think most pastors are well aware because they’ve, you know they’ve counseled women in their church and they counseled men in their church who are post abortive who deeply regret it. So they know those stories are out there, but there is a degree of, you know, of ignorance, you know, with respect to the impact that abortion is having on the church. And then I think a third reason, certainly not a final reason, but a third reason is apathy. You know, we don’t like to say this you know, we want to think well of our pastors but the truth is that in any career field, you have people who really don’t care about the ones that they serve so you’ve got some attorneys who don’t care about their clients and you’ve got some school teachers who don’t care about the students and some doctors who don’t care about their patients and sadly, and I think most tragically, is that we have plenty of churches where the shepherd really doesn’t care about the flock. I think there’s an enormous amount of apathy with respect to abortion. And you know, Jesus had very strong words for shepherds who will not protect the vulnerable, who will not protect the oppressed, who will not protect the flock. You know, in John Chapter 10, he said the Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep, but the hireling runs away when the wolf attacks. And for shepherds especially, you know, in this day and age, for shepherds to remain silent about abortion is really just, you know, spiritual malpractice i mean, we know they’re being attacked we know the numbers these pastors are you know are well aware that abortion is a great moral evil and when they won’t speak I think they reveal that they expose the fact that they really are not qualified for the job and that may sound harsh to some in your audience but again it’s Jesus that said they were hirelings not me they are they are the most vulnerable in our flock and to turn a blind eye to them i mean, you know, imagine, just to elaborate on that, Jacob, Imagine, you know, the, you know, in Hebrews 11, you know, we read that, you know that classic, you know, Hall of Faith chapter that, you know, we talked about David and Gideon and Barracks and Samson, Jeff and Jeff and so forth, who conquered kingdoms and shut the mouths of lions and quenched the fury of the flames and routed foreign armies. And it says it administered justice. So imagine that they could have looked forward to a day in 2023 when so many shepherds would actually choose silence over faithfulness that they would actually surrender the most vulnerable of the flock to the abortionist knife without so much as a whimper from the pulpit it’s a great disgrace, and I think it’s the great scandal of the church in America today is that so many churches have gone silent now, I just want to add to that very quickly. I do want to say this. I have the privilege of speaking frequently throughout the year to pastors, audiences, luncheons, breakfasts, and so forth. And I do meet shepherds who do speak out, who are bold, who are not afraid. And I’m grateful for them and I think that number is growing it’s certainly not where we would like to see it be. But I think there’s an awakening in the church today on this subject oh, well, I should say a word specifically an awakening with respect to the evil threat that abortion is to our flocks and I’m grateful for shepherds who do speak out.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah I would say you know for pastors who happen to hear this podcast, I would encourage you to know that people on your flock desire for this to be laid out as part of you know as part of the official position of your church, part of your official position as the as the spiritual guide of myself or others and so this is, this is, this is a desired thing. And I went to a church several years ago and one of the leaders told me that they’re not going to take a position on abortion because it would add one more hurdle for someone who might visit their church and they were trying to, like remove roadblocks from someone coming. But then when talking to other people about that concept, it felt like, then what is a church if you’re not going to take a moral stance on something that is so you know, clearly good versus evil? And what does a church have if it’s not taking a stance for good?
Mike Spencer :
Exactly when the church, when Christians or church leaders say something like that, what they’re really revealing is that they don’t believe the gospel that they claim to believe. I mean, imagine if we took that approach towards other sins. What if we said, well, we’re not going to speak out against adultery because we might turn adulterers off from the gospel, or we’re not going to speak out against lying or gossip or slander because we might turn those people off. If we really believe the gospel, then why don’t we lead with it on this issue why don’t we bring that to bear? We don’t turn people away from the gospel when we reveal or expose sin. Nobody accuses John the Baptist of turning Herod away from the gospel. Herod turned himself away from the gospel. But we are, we are called as shepherds now i’m not actively pastoring anymore i’m doing this work full time. But i am still a pastor you can you can take the pastor out of the pulpit, but you can’t take the pulpit out of the pastor right so, but really, we if we really believe the gospel that we claim to believe, then we recognize that we’re actually doing people a favor those who have aborted their children or have been responsible for abortion in some way. When we expose abortion for the evil that it is and then hold out the gospel, hold out the word of life as hope for those who have been impacted by abortion decisions, we’re actually doing them a favor john eight thirty six says if the sun sets you free, you’ll be free indeed. So if we really believe that, then that’s not a message we should go quiet on. You know, when the church does go silent, you know, motivated by things like, you know, like you just shared there were they’re actually communicating one of two messages to those in their church who’ve had abortions or to those in their church who might be considering having an abortion. They’re communicating either A abortion is not so bad or B the gospel is not so good or both. And Paul said speak the truth and love we can do better than this right we need to speak the truth and love and let God’s work, let God’s spirit do the work in the hearts and lives of people. When the church goes silent, the shepherd is saying, well, abortion is not a big thing, must be OK with God, no big deal. Or it’s so bad that I can’t even talk about it from the pulpit, that this is the unpardonable sin and both of these are damaging and regretful messages that our silence sends and we the church has got to do better than that now, you had a second part to that question forgive me i lost that. Do you remember what that was? well.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, I guess i might have. I was just focusing on what you just said and I lost track of what my other part was. That’s right. But can you? Let’s talk about what it looks like for a church to provide both protection for the unborn by speaking and posturing, as well as providing a place where healing can be found for people who are connected to who need healing from this the sphere of abortion.
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, that’s a good question because I think a lot of churches or even pastors and priests, they a lot of times they will assume that they have to make a choice that they’re either going to be a church that speaks out boldly against abortion or they’re going to be a church where they provide a kind of a safe, caring, redemptive community for those who are post abortive but this is, this is a false dichotomy this is the false choice we never have to choose between ministering to innocent children and guilty adults we can do both the church can do both. Again, if we believe the gospel that we claim to believe, and if we lead with the gospel in this, in this subject, with this subject, then these are not competing interests we can love both the unborn child and the adult who has sinned in this way. So to maybe flesh that out a little bit further, I think it’s entirely possible i know it’s possible i did it, and I’ve seen other pastors do it and do it well it is entirely possible for a shepherd to boldly declare abortion from the pulpit on Sunday morning when the big crowd is there, not just on Wednesday night you know when the faithful 12 is there but to boldly declare abortion from the pulpit for the evil that it is, to expose it you know Ephesians five eleven have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. Rather, expose them. And at the same time, it’s possible for the shepherd, as I said, to hold out the gospel, to hold out the word of life to those who have been hurt. It doesn’t have to be done on two different Sundays it could be done in the same sermon because, again, these go together like a hand in a glove they’re not competing interests. And that said, I do think it’s very important for a shepherd to do 2 things to boldly declare abortion for the evil that it is not to dance around it, you know, or to, you know, to speak in hushed tones, but to boldly declared for the threat that it is. But then also to very redemptive and very gracefully to speak of forgiveness, to speak of God’s grace and forgiveness for anyone who comes to the Father through Christ the Son, acknowledging that he is Lord and that they are sinful and that they need it. Said that they need forgiveness. This is this does need to be done gently and kindly and respectfully and so forth, but it but it needs to be done and again we need to trust God’s Spirit and God’s Word to do the work. Instead of, you know, seeing ourselves as we’ve got to have some crystal ball and sort of decide how will how do I think people might respond to this message Instead just be faithful with the word of God, be kind and gracious and yet bold in the way that you present it. And watch God do great things because he will i’ve seen it, and many other shepherds have seen that as well.
Jacob Barr :
One of the values that the church that I go to has is authenticity. And sometimes just simply speaking things as that are real and that are true, but mostly that they’re just, you know, essentially, you know, confessing something that is that is true and in the past and then asking for someone to pray in the end. You know, this experience of helping someone find healing will double as speaking up against helping others avoid that, you know the harms of abortion. And I think just really, you know, making it more into a healing confession where someone can listen and pray for someone else that that’s going to resonate into a culture within a church to you know, a culture of healing and that of protection. And it’ll include that protection of being against abortion. And I think that one of my favorite verses last year, my favorite verse was James five sixteen, which is confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed and the prayers of a righteous person availeth much. And so that idea of, you know, speaking out what You know what I what I chose to do that was wrong in the past and asking for someone I trust and to pray has huge benefits when it comes to recovery and healing from a sinful decision.
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, You know, there’s a lot of truth in that i don’t know if it’s a cliche or what it is, that little maximum or that little saying that sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. And you know, I would say to your audience today, if you are listening and you have either had an abortion or you have been responsible for one, certainly you need to confess that to God and accept that gift of grace that is yours and not just the gift of grace in forgiveness, but the grace that comes to you in healing. Christ can’t be our healer until he is first our Savior. And when I say you can’t, I mean certainly Christ can heal us at any stage but the order is that we confess it and acknowledge it as sin, but then accept that healing that comes. Philippians, one tells us that he who began a good work in US will carry it unto completion until the day of Christ Jesus. And so I think that’s just beautiful it’s not just that God Forgives, forgives us, forgives us of our sin and again, we could be talking about any sin, lust, lying, gossip, slander, or in this case abortion, but that he does more than that he not only promises to forgive us when we when we confess our sin, but he promises to put us back together emotionally and to restore us to Kingdom usefulness. And that is such a great message it’s so sad, it’s so tragic that so many churches have chosen silence over faithfulness it’s like we’ve got the good news, you know, people can find real freedom and real forgiveness for their sins. And yeah, we should not be shy about that at all.
Jacob Barr :
So Mike, how would you encourage someone who is attending a church that is silent, what would you say to that person that may encourage them or help them communicate something that’s needed to their to their leadership at their church?
Mike Spencer :
That’s a really important question and i what I would encourage people to do is remember if you want your pastor to speak out against abortion, you may have to speak to your pastor or your priest about abortion. And I know that’s tough to do and having served in a pastoral role for, had different pastoral roles for 23 years. You know, i know how difficult that job can be to be a pastor. And i know most people in our churches are respectful of the role and respect of respectful of the person serving in that role and they may be a little bit hesitant to go to him but, you know, I would encourage you, if your shepherd is silent, to go prayerfully not to hit him up Sunday morning, you know, 5 minutes after his sermon, but to call him through the week and just say, you know, Father Joe, Pastor Bob, you know, is there a chance I could come in and chat with you this next week and tell him what it is you want to talk to him about say, you know, I’ve got a burden for the unborn and their young moms. And I wonder if I could just come in and share that with you and see if there are ways that I can partner with you that I could make people help you in this respect. In other words, offer yourself to a pastor as one who wants to help him, not as one who wants to nail him at the same time i think it’s more than fair, and I think it’s actually the right thing to do, is to go in and share your burden with him, let him know why you care so deeply about this and ask him some pointed questions but do it again respectfully and humbly but say, you know, pastor, can I ask, why don’t we talk about this here why are you not talking about this here? Can I ask where you stand on this? Do you think it’s important to share this with the church? If not, why not? You know, I think, again, not in an interrogating way, but in a respectful way. I think this can be done and I think it should be done. I mean, frankly, a shepherd who’s not doing this needs somebody in his flock he needs a Nathan to come to him and to challenge him. You’re doing your pastor, You’re doing your priest a favor. If you hold them accountable like this. Remember, they do this every Sunday with you know, they get up in the pulpit every Sunday and tell you how to raise your children and how to manage your money and how to behave sexually and so on and so forth every once in a while if they if they’re dishing it out week after week, they should be able they should have broad enough shoulders to take it too again, I’m not encouraging anybody to go in with their guns blazing, but to go in prayerfully, respectfully and humbly, but unapologetically and holding his feet to the fire is the right thing to do so.
Jacob Barr :
The People team tend to have a lot of strong opinions about abortion and sometimes it’s said that there’s no sense arguing about abortion, that, you know, people don’t change their minds. And it can be very frustrating, like, you know, if you have conflict and then there’s no maybe positive outcome that seems to come from that. What are, what are your stance on you know the right, the right posture towards trying to be helpful or persuasive and helping someone sort of you know to see a more positive Christ like you know position on this on this topic.
Mike Spencer :
Yeah well I think you just answered it in a way with that phrase there christ like, I think that’s the key is we need to be Christ like first of all I would say this, it’s just not true that people never change their mind about abortion i I’m living proof of that i changed my mind, and I could point you to many others, and I’m sure you could do the same, Jacob. Many other national pro-life leaders who saw abortion or somebody presented a good argument to them and they did change their mind. So I see it in my work. I know others are seeing it in their work as well people do change their minds. Ultimately, though, our role is to just be faithful, is to present a good case, is to make the argument for the unborn in a gracious and compelling manner of course, that depends on a lot of things it depends on us having good arguments we need to avail ourselves. There’s great apologetic works out there today all kinds of resources that are available to us. We need to avail ourselves to these so that we know what it is we’re arguing in first, Peter three fifteen says always be prepared to give an argument or an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. And so we need to be prepared to give those arguments, to make those arguments, not in an argumentative manner, of course, but in the, in the true sense of the word, the way an attorney would argue on behalf of a client in a court of law, he or she is presenting good reasons to believe that his or her client is innocent so that’s what we’re doing we’re trying to present a good case here, appealing to the science of human Embryology to make the case for the full biological humanity of the unborn child, and then appealing to moral reasoning to make the case for the full person into the unborn child and then knowing how to handle tough objections what about rape what about life of the mother these kinds of things. But the other thing that we need is we do need, as you said, a Christ like manner if look, the thing that drives the pro-life movement this sanctity of human life ethic that we have is the belief that not only are the unborn lovable, not only they should they be loved and protected, but even the one who threatens the unborn should be loved. They mean happy acting very lovable but we should be loving them anyway and so it’s incumbent upon us as Christ’s ambassadors and I think that’s key there is to remember who we’re representing we’re representing Christ and His little ones, and so it’s incumbent upon us to approach even our most hostile opponent, even our most vile opponent, in a way that is gracious and respectful and kind we need to be good listeners we don’t want to misrepresent people’s views. We just need to be gracious and we need to be people who have of prayer, people who are led by God’s spirit. And frankly, when we’re doing those things, then really keeping our cool with others isn’t that difficult and I’m a pretty passionate guy and I yes, i’ve walked away from conversations before where I felt I didn’t do a very good job of listening or I was too hard with that person or whatever. I’ve blown it i i’m certainly not going to claim otherwise but the truth of the matter is the more we grow in this the better we do this and the less mess ups we have in that and people respond to authenticity they respond to good solid arguments and not everybody does but I think reasonably minded people are open to a good case we need to make that case well.
Jacob Barr :
So which passages in the Bible do you think really resonate on the church speaking up about abortion or resonate in a Christian’s position, you know, helping us have like a foundation and biblical texts on our position on abortion?
Mike Spencer :
Well, I think Proverbs 31 eight couldn’t be more clear you know, speak up for those who have no voice for the rights of all who are destitute it just doesn’t become more clear than that. Proverbs 2411 says rescue those being LED away to death, hold back those staggering towards slaughter. It actually goes on to say in that in that passage, if you claim, well, we didn’t know anything about this, does not he who knows the heart perceive it. In other words, we are without excuse. We’ve been clearly commanded to do this. So those would be just a couple of verses. Ephesians five eleven, which I referenced earlier where Paul writes to the church that says have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness in other words it’s not just enough for Christians not to have an abortion, but then he goes on to say, but expose them or to expose this evil so part of the job of the church is to expose this evil. And you know there are other passages i mean we the bottom line is i mean, well, Luke, chapter 10, the Parable of the Good Samaritan. You know, the moral there is that we have a moral duty to our neighbor. Whether that neighbor has been beaten and abandoned in a ditch or denied legal protection and abandoned in the womb, we have a moral duty to them we are our brother’s keeper, right. So I mean, we can there are so many other passages, of course, but that’s just, you know, a few of them that I think are just crystal clear.
Jacob Barr :
So when it when it comes to a church that wants to stay out of abortion because of because it’s political. Because of how political it is, What’s your response to a church leader that’s trying to avoid, you know, trying to essentially stay out of politics?
Mike Spencer :
Well, first of all I don’t know what Bible they’re reading. I don’t know where in the Bible it says stay out of politics what I see in the Bible is become salt and light in every nook and cranny of society. So I don’t the whole premise there is just is just a faulty 1. Diedrich Bonhoeffer didn’t follow that advice, you know, Abraham Kuiper, the Dutch theologian philosopher said this he said there’s not one square inch of the entire domain of existence to which Christ doesn’t point to it and say that is mine. Christ is Lord of all. That means He’s Lord of my parenting role he’s Lord of my role as a husband he’s Lord of my sexuality, he’s the Lord of my money and he’s the Lord of my vote. So the reality is, I think the church should be involved in politics now, that said, I don’t think the church should become a political animal i’m not suggesting anything like that. But we should be training people how to vote, how to use their influence as salt and light in society and certain moral issues rise to the top when we go into the voting booth when I go into the voting booth, Christ goes in there with me he’s the Lord of my vote. This is not an issue of partisanship, it’s an issue of lordship now that said, it is true, and i know some pro lifers don’t like this language, but I think we just need to be candid about this it is true that abortion is a political issue i mean, how can we deny it our nation is divided, you know, bitterly over the abortion issue and particular and we see that the political parties are diametrically opposed on this, so that the you know, the line is drawn politically but it is much more accurate though while I’m admitting that abortion is a political issue, it’s much more accurate to describe it as a moral, spiritual issue that has been politicized. And when you think about it, Jacob, every moral issue is eventually politicized i mean, just a few years ago, the redefining of marriage here in the United States was politicized. That didn’t render it off limits for the pulpit. So just because the dismembering, the decapitating and the disembowelling of little boys and girls in the name of choice has been politicized should not render it off limits for the pulpit. We don’t lick our fingers as pastors and stick them into the wind to see which way the fashion, the winds of fashion are blowing decide what we’re going to preach on. We are called to be a voice for the voiceless. And so that should trump everything in the pulpit is what is God’s word compel me to do here. So again, I would just keep going back to this it’s not an issue ultimately of partisanship. It is an issue of lordship, Lordship and now I would just add this, I and I think shepherds should teach this pastors and priests should be teaching this that as Christians we cannot name Christ Lord and then go into the voting booth and vote for a political party or a candidate who wants to strip an entire class of our citizenry, their most fundamental right, the right to life. How can we do that in good conscience? We have a duty and the duty is to protect the weakest among us and to cast our vote again we’re always voting for a lesser of two evils admittedly but we should be looking who’s the best candidate here. Who’s the best party here that’s going to protect innocent life and that’s the fundamental duty of government of the state is to protect the innocent from or I should say to protect the weak from the strong. So or could be said but.
Jacob Barr :
Sure but so with let’s say 95 % of pastors are male and you know and when some people will say you know abortion is a woman’s issue and how does you know no uterus, no opinion. What are your thoughts on a male pastor speaking about abortion? And you know, how does that resonate and how does that impact how that posture, you know, that posturing or the messaging might be?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah well, I think when pastors and again most pastors are men so a lot of pastors have self censored on this point because they feel like, well, this has been packaged as a woman’s rights issue for decades and you know, I’m not a woman, so I better keep my mouth quiet here, right. But the reality is that this is not a woman’s rights issue and we need to see it for what it is it’s a human rights issue or as I said earlier, it’s a gospel you’re responding to abortion that is a gospel issue. So it’s interesting when, you know, i don’t hear this much anymore and maybe it’s because we don’t even know what a woman is that you know, in our culture anymore. Maybe that’s the reason but the other side doesn’t seem to be throwing this accuser or this. They don’t seem to be silencing the church anymore. Well, let me restate that we’re not hearing as often this argument well, you’re a man, you can’t speak the issue because I think they’re afraid to say that now because they don’t want to be gendering us or whatever but look, pro-life women give the same arguments against abortion as pro-life men. And so at the end of the day, even if you are sexist and you don’t like my anatomy or my gender, you have to contend with my arguments. My arguments against abortion are either good arguments or they’re bad arguments but it has nothing to do with my gender. It has nothing to do with my maleness. Furthermore, I would say this, Not only do men have as much right to speak to the issue of abortion as any woman, I think they have a greater duty. And I know this will not sit well with those that might be in your audience who are. You know, have bought into feminism but I’m convinced that God has called men to be the primary leaders of their homes, their communities, and their churches. And so this is just really a sexist argument it’s a foolish argument and men should not be intimidated into silence by it.
Jacob Barr :
So what are your thoughts when someone says like you know, there’s my church is divided, you know, maybe it’s a 4060 split and not everyone is on the same page for abortion. And so bringing it up with, you know, out of fear of like a division or lots of conflict, you know, the pastor or leadership is silent what would be your response to that scenario?
Mike Spencer :
Well, the first thing if the church is if a given a particular local church is divided over the issue of abortion, the question that Shepherd ought to be asking himself is why is my church divided over such a fundamental moral issue that that’s the first thing? Now, maybe it’s not his fault. Maybe he inherited that you know, maybe he’s new to that church, he’s new on staff, and that’s what he has inherited. But regardless, remaining silent over the subject of abortion because you think you’re because your church is divided over it is not protecting unity it’s actually protecting division. What you’re actually saying is my church is divided i’m going to remain silent so that it will remain divided so you’re not protecting unity at that point you’re protecting division. Instead, the division over abortion should become the marching orders. That should be the thing that says, OK, I have a duty now before God and before this flock, and that is to preach with all the fire of a reformer until I drive every little vestige of division over this basic moral issue from the hearts and the minds of my people. That’s what that shepherd should be doing. So rather than looking at church division over abortion, saying, well, that’s my reason to remain silent, that’s the reason he should be speaking up boldly, and he should do it until they can his one voice, like the Apostle Paul, say from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view, though we once regarded Christ in that way that’s Second Corinthians 5 believe it is. So no church should be i mean, imagine if we were talking about not the killing of unborn babies, Jacob, but imagine if we were talking about the legalized killing of toddlers. Let’s say that was what we were all divided about as a nation, right? And you had pro toddler killing people and anti toddler killing people and so forth the church was divided like you said 6040 or whatever the split was. Imagine saying, well my church is divided over whether or not it’s OK to kill toddlers. So I’m going to just be quiet about this. It’s just a ridiculous it’s an incredible way of thinking really it’s just an absurd and obscene way of thinking, I should say.
Jacob Barr :
And really, the killing of toddlers is not that extreme i mean it is extreme, but and that’s what you know, that’s how you know, Jesus was threatened as a toddler to be wiped out as someone under two years old. And so you know the, you know, government action to, you know, the try and wipe out a competing king was that that’s what happened there. So let’s go to a hard case scenario and see how you know you would respond. So what happens when a young woman is woman is raped and she becomes pregnant? What are what are your thoughts on abortion and life in that scenario?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah. So you know, that’s that is i think that’s probably the most difficult challenge that we face as pro lifers is the rape challenge. Now I don’t think it’s difficult morally and I’ll explain that in a minute, but it’s very difficult emotionally. And the reason is because tragically in our culture and in every culture, some women do get raped, some young girls do get raped and some of them do become pregnant. And so this is a very difficult challenge that we face and one thing I would just warn your listeners against is doing what a lot of pro lifers will do. And I’ll admit I used to do this 1520 years ago when I just didn’t I hadn’t been taught Christian apologetics and or pro-life apologetics i really didn’t know any better but a lot of times you’ll hear pro lifers say well that’s less than 1 % of all abortions, which may be true, but it’s not helpful if you’re the 24 year old woman or the 14 year old girl who’s been raped. And now you only weeks later you discover that now you’re pregnant against your will you didn’t choose this, right? Telling that woman or that young girl, Oh well, don’t worry, it’s less than 1 % is not a helpful, is not a helpful response. So I would recommend a two-part response to this challenge the first thing I would encourage your listeners to do is to show real empathy that you, the woman that’s asking the question or the man or the young person that’s asking the question may have either been raped or may have a loved one who’s been raped. And sometimes we don’t know who that audience you know who our audience is. So we should not. We should be careful to answer not just the question that’s being asked, but the person who’s asking it so in other words, I want to be sensitive to that person so I think so i’ll tell you how I do this now again, your audience is going to do this differently because their story is different but i will usually say something like this. Well, listen, you know, thank you for the question thanks for the challenge i appreciate it i am married to a woman i have four daughters and I have 4 granddaughters and I cannot imagine one of my loved ones being raped and then only to find out weeks later that she’s now pregnant. This would be a horrific situation and I’m very sympathetic to that so that’s the first thing we need to do and by the way, showing sympathy is not a checkbox i mean, I know you know that Jacob, but it’s not a checkbox. We have to take the time and really show ourselves to be genuinely compassionate i mean, I can’t imagine being a woman or a young girl who’s been raped and now has a baby. This would be horrible. But the second thing that we do, the second part of this response is to ask the person who’s bringing the challenge to you know, hey Diane or hey, Joe. But isn’t the real question How should a civilized society treat innocent members of society who remind us of a painful event? Should we kill them? That’s the Moral Focus Questionnaire how should a civilized society treat innocent members of society who remind us of a painful event? In the case of rape, where a child has been conceived, You have two victims, you have the mother and you have that little one who didn’t choose to be brought into the world through those circumstances. But the fact of the matter is you have two lives there, two human beings. And it’s ironic that those on the other side of this issue will argue that we should give the death penalty to the innocent child for the crimes of the guilty father, the rapist. That’s barbaric. I say we love them both, Love both the mother and the baby we can do that and that is what nearly 3000 pregnancy care centers throughout the United States and many churches are doing exactly, exactly that The in the case of rape, raw child has been conceived. The question is not how was 1 conceived, but rather was 1 conceived. That’s the real question here and we need to stay focused on that question what is the preborn in our dialogue with people about this about this issue? What we’re doing in the in where, you know, Roe V Wade, which I know has fallen now, but we still have abortion legal in most states. What we’re doing is we’re saying to the woman who was raped or the young girl who was raped because somebody has treated you horribly. It’s because somebody has assaulted you and violated you horribly. We are now going to let you legally assault another human being to death. That’s really what we’re doing. How is that helpful to the young woman or the young girl who’s been raped i like what Lila Rose of Live Action says she says that abortion does not unrape a woman. It is true that a woman who or young girl who has conceived a child through rape, it’s true that baby, if she chooses to parent the baby or even if not, that baby will be a reminder to her the rest of her life of having been raped. But killing that child is not going to make that memory go away and so I think we need to love both the mother and the baby in this case, and I think we can do that.
Jacob Barr :
So the next question I’ve got is, you know or the, you know, one of the reasons that some people will advocate for abortion is based on the life of the mother. So I was recently, well, talking to someone who is Muslim and talking to them about their pro-life stance and I learned that the Muslim faith is against abortion, except in the case where the life of the mother is in danger. And my understanding with modern science, it’s primarily based off of whether you have a pro-life doctor or a pro abortion doctor You know, for example, if someone has cancer and they need to have chemo treatments, you know, a pro-life doctor might say, wait until the baby is 2 weeks older and then proceed with chemo. While a pro abortion doctor might say, let’s have an abortion so you have one less thing to take care of and so really I think the modern science, there really isn’t a reason for the life of the mother to have an abortion. You know if the baby’s life is viable, like you know in the case of a of a ectopic, the baby is not going to survive and if the baby is not removed from the fallopian tube then it will kill the mother and so. But when it comes to a viable pregnancy, modern science essentially or modern medicine allows for yeah allows for treatment while pregnant. What are your thoughts of like you know this but the of this argument of the life of the mother is a reason to have the abortion what are your thoughts on that dialogue and the and the yeah points?
Mike Spencer :
Yeah, well I think the rape challenge and then this one, the life of the mother challenge or the health, life and health of the mother challenge are really the two biggest ones that we face and again for the same reason because they’re emotional and understandably so because women’s lives, in this case we’re talking about you know, an ectopic pregnancy let’s say or you know, or chorioamnionitis or severe placental abruption, whatever these are life threatening, health, certainly health threatening and light and even life threatening pregnancy related conditions. And I think the question then becomes, the moral question becomes well what can we do what moral good thing can we do? Well, in the case of let’s say an ectopic pregnancy where the baby is, the baby’s going to grow, 95 % of ectopic pregnancies result in the baby lodging in one of the fallopian tubes, right? And that as that baby grows, the fallopian tube is going to rupture eventually. And assuming that there’s not some kind of emergency medical treatment taken before that and that mother will, as you said, if she doesn’t get immediate emergency medical treatment, she’s going to hemorrhage to death. And about 45 to 60 women die in the United States every year from an ectopic pregnancy, from a tubal pregnancy rupturing. So it is a very serious situation. But the fact of the matter is that we never need doctors never need to intentionally abort or kill a baby to save a mother’s life at any stage in pregnancy. They may have to induce labor or perform AC section, take that baby so early that the baby could not possibly survive but that’s not an abortion, because abortion is the intentional killing of the unborn baby. In this case, the intention is to save the mother’s life with the foreseen but unintended consequence of the baby dying now some in your audience might say, well, you’re splitting hairs. What’s the difference well, there’s a big difference because when we judge or assess moral decisions, we don’t just judge the ACT, but we judge the motive behind the ACT and I’m not suggesting that the motive is good, that the action is always good, but I am saying we take both of those things into consideration. So in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, where the doctors would perform either a self injectomy or salpingostomy, one goes in and removes the baby and the fallopian tube, the other one goes and removes the baby from the fallopian tube but in both cases, the baby’s going to die, right? But that’s not an abortion. And by the way, I’m not a doctor i’m not a medical expert i’m not pretending to be that. But there are plenty of experts out there. Doctor Christina Francis from Aplog she’s the CEO of the American Association of pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists, as well as Doctor Anthony Levitino, one of the nation’s most respected high risk pregnancy doctors. The Dublin Declaration of Healthcare. The Dublin Declaration on Maternal Health of 2012 signed by over a thousand medical experts, doctors and medical experts all say that you never need to intentionally kill a baby to save a mother’s life. Now, again, just to be clear, doctors may have to perform a surgery or maybe have to induce labor or perform C sections so early in that pregnancy that the baby couldn’t survive. But that is not the intentional killing of the baby. In that case, they’re doing that because they can’t save the baby the baby’s going to die anyway. What they’re doing is trying to do the good that they can do, and the good that they can do is to save the mother. So this is not commonly known even within the body of Christ and maybe even within the more narrow pro-life community. Many pro lifers or people who would claim to be pro-life and are would be confused about this issue because there’s been so much misinformation about it but the fact of the matter is, you never need to intentionally kill an unborn baby to save the mother’s life.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome yeah very well said i would So the next you know attack that we often feel on the pro-life world or you know the price of clinic world is that we don’t care about the moms and the babies after you know after the baby’s been born what are what are your thoughts on that on that attack.
Mike Spencer :
Well, you know, some accusations are so ridiculous that they barely require a response but i’m going to give one to that because I know that is. Again, that’s one of these accusations that’s made routinely about the pro-life community and there’s just not an ounce of truth in it. Let’s just do a little bit of math let’s follow the money here. Right now in the United States, there are not quite 700 abortion clinics about 350 of those are surgical abortion clinics about 250 of those are pill clinics or chemical clinics. Many of those are owned and operated by men for financial profit off of women, young women who are in a crisis and off the blood of their children and these guys are driving Lamborghinis, and they’re living in gated communities because abortion is big money right now follow the money. So we’ve got 700 abortion clinics approximately many of those run by men for financial profit off of women. And right now in the United States, we have a growing number of pregnancy care centers and that number is up to almost 3000 If you Google it, it’s like 21 to twenty two hundred i think it’s the number you that you will find, but that’s a little bit misleading because many of those centers have two three four and five locations is that brings the actual number up to nearly 3000 These centers are predominantly, not exclusively, but predominantly led by men. I’m sorry, I’m sorry by women, for women at no cost to women and these ladies are not driving Lamborghinis and living in gated communities because most of them are getting very modest salaries or in many cases are working in volunteer capacities and many of their staff members are as well. It doesn’t take long to find out who the real friend of women and children, both born and unborn, really is. It is the pro-life movement. And I mean you just look at the, look at Planned Parenthood you want an ultrasound of Planned Parenthood it’s 150 bucks to start. You want an ultrasound at any pregnancy care center that has an ultrasound machine and it’s free. I mean you know it it’s just again, it’s one of those accusations that sounds really good, plays really good in the media the media loves that kind of an accusation that we’re, you know, the argument is that we have a fetus fetish, that we’re obsessed with saving the fetus but once the baby comes, once the fetus comes out of the mother, then we want to disappear you know, we disappear we want to take all welfare programs away. None of that is true and the other side, I think if they were honest with themselves, know that that’s not true. Now what we do need is we need the body of Christ we need shepherds to be heralding this, to be championing this fact from their pulpits because many of our own people don’t know this i, you know, I speak all over and I asked audiences frequently how many pregnancy care centers, you know, tell them there’s 700 abortion clinics how many pregnancy care centers do you think they’re all now 60? A hundred, 200 i get that number all the time. Most people are shocked when I tell them that it’s nearly 3000 because nobody’s telling that story, and if we don’t tell it, it’s not going to get told. But the reality is no one loves moms and babies, both born and unborn, like the body of Christ and like the pro-life movement.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and sometimes it’s a matter of you know there’s a lot of focus that’s spent on the fire in the living room and the fire in the backyard gets delayed because we’re trying to take, we’re trying to put the fire out that’s in the middle of the house. And you know there’s it’s a matter of priority priorities and but also it’s a matter of finding balance once we once we, you know have some programs in place and for the major issues it provides a little bit of bandwidth for providing support for all issues but you know people don’t complain to the, you know, the anti smoking group. You know that you’re not doing enough to feed, you know to feed people that are starving in Africa. But yet. But for some reason, pricey clinics are responsible for everything, and it feels more like an attack more so than a helpful rebuke.
Mike Spencer :
You’re right that is what it is when, look, when pro-choice people tell us, you know we’re only pro-life or we’re not really pro-life we’re only pro birth when they say that they’re not trying to help us out to be more consistent what they’re really trying to do is make us look bad. But the fact of the matter is you know, well I like how Frederick Frederick the Great is credited with having said he who fights everywhere, fights nowhere. We have limited resources and I think our enemies, our opponents would love us to spread our resources so thin has to be completely ineffective in everything that we do. We stay focused narrowly on saving the unborn because the other side is focused narrowly on killing. And so we don’t need to apologize for the fact that you know that we are focused in a very narrow way we can’t do everything and you make a great point you know nobody says to the American Cancer Society, you know if you’re really against cancer, you’d also be against abortion. No it they only do that only flows in One Direction it’s only us that they, you know, if you’re really pro-life and you’re going to be against war and you’re going to be for gun control and you’re going to be for open borders and you’re going to be feeding the poor and clothing the naked and doing all of these other things they want to broaden it so widely that we are ineffective at everything. They’re not, these are not our friends these are people that are really just trying to silence us really.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, there’s a lot of power when it comes to focus. And even in the pro-life world, there are people that focus in certain portions of it and that’s much more fruitful than someone trying to take on all the different hats within the pro-life sphere. And so it’s focus has tremendous power when it comes to effectiveness and results. And that’s why, you know, we’re part of the body of Christ i mean we’re, you know, we ask the ear to hear and the eye to see and we don’t ask the reverse.
Mike Spencer :
Well, just look at you and I we’re doing very different work and you know, it’s the beauty of the body of Christ, as you’re saying it’s the beauty and the pro-life movement that you see different people with different giftings you know, I’m doing one thing and somebody else is doing another thing but we are together we are an army of gentle warriors who are really making a difference, and I thank God for that.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, so tell us about, so you’re in Ohio and there’s been some political things going on in the pro-life sphere or the. Yeah and right, the life sphere there. Tell us about what’s going on and yeah, what your thoughts are yeah.
Mike Spencer :
No, I’m glad to answer that there is right now here in our state, the state of Ohio a ballot initiative that has been excuse me, proposed or put forth by a couple of pro abortion organizations and they are putting seventy million dollars into this campaign to codify abortion into law, to codify this into our state constitution. What it will do in essence Jacob, is it will strip the unborn of all protective rights and all laws that are in place currently in Ohio to protect them it will, it will do away with all of those. It will also do away with parental consent laws so that parents will no longer if this passes in November. Right now the where it stands is that the other side has to garner, I think it’s 413,000 thousand votes by july fifth, which I’m sure they will have no trouble doing and if they do that then this will go on the ballot in November now it all gets a little bit right now we have a in Ohio we have a 50 % + 1 rule so for this to pass, we only need 50 % of the voter bloc plus one to make that pass, which is a low threshold for any kind of a change it’s ridiculous that you know that we had that low of a standard for our that our Constitution frankly isn’t protected better than that. But it did just pass in our house that this is now going to go to a vote, a special election in August i think it’s August eighth, I believe is the date where we will actually be voting to raise that threshold to 60 %, which would be great, But regardless, it looks like this will go to the ballot in November. And Ohioans and Christians are going to vote on whether or not they think the unborn are disposable but it’s going to strip the unborn of all rights it’s going to strip parental rights away from parents. It’s also going to take safety and health standards away from mothers or from moms, from women. Right now, abortion clinics in the state of Ohio are considered ambulatory surgical facilities. And so they have to have the abortions, has to have hospital privileges with within 30 miles of his abortion clinic in order to perform abortions. It’ll strip that. So that’ll take these safety and health regulations away, putting women’s lives at even greater risk. And it will also impact, because of the way that the wording in Ohio’s ballot initiative is almost identical to the wording in Michigan. What it’s going to do if it passes here is it’s not only going to strip parents, well it’s only going to strip the unborn of their rights, but it’s also going to and take parental rights away from parents with respect to abortion but it’s also going to take the right away from parents to have a say in whether or not their son or daughter gets surgeries for, you know, if they’re, you know, for transgendering surgeries i’m throwing a blank here on the words. And so it’s just it’s really a hideous thing that they are proposing and it a very, a very terrible thing for children and both born and unborn. And so yes, I’m very involved in that effort right now with a group well with another woman here in the state of Ohio, her name is Laura Kern laura and I are working on an we put together a small organization called Together for Life Ohio where we are going throughout the state at our at our own expense to speak at Pastor’s luncheons, Pastor’s breakfast we’ve already done I think seven or eight of these we’ve got another one coming up here in a couple of days we got several of them on the calendar. So we are going throughout the state of Ohio equipping pastors to know how to respond to this in their pulpits, how do we equip their churches to stand against this evil. So that’s what’s happening here and it’s in all eyes around Ohio because really as Ohio goes, often times the country goes that way as well. So yeah, it’s a very important battle we have to win this we need shepherds, pastors and priests to speak out boldly, to equip their congregations to stand against this and they can, if they’re interested to find out more to bring us in, they can go to our website togetherforlifeohio.org and they can contact us through that.
Jacob Barr :
Wow well, Mike, I really enjoyed yeah, hearing all the, you know, your wisdom and intellect on these topics. Would you. Would you wrap up our podcast with a prayer with those who are listening and they can join as they’re, you know, driving on their daily commute? They can. Yeah pray along with, you know, this passionate direction for saving lives and also praying for, Yeah, for safety, for the children in Ohio through the lawmaker. Yeah, these lawmaking things that are going on.
Mike Spencer :
Well, I’d be glad to do that, Jacob. Let’s do that let’s pray, Father, It is a great blessing for us to be a voice to the voiceless that you would raise us up as individuals in our respective circles of influence to speak up for those who have no voice, to rescue those who are being LED away to death and God i do pray that as our nation continues, as the pro-life community in our nation continues to press on, that you will bring victory to us, that we will have an undying resolve to give voice to the voiceless and we do pray specifically about this battle in Ohio. Lord, that you would raise up shepherds, pastors, and priests who would be unashamed of the unborn, who would be bold voices for the voiceless. That you would put it in the hearts of every professing Christian to stand against this evil when they vote in November. Lord, we want you to be glorified and we want to see our nation safe for children and safe for young moms. And I pray that you would embolden the church and strengthen us to do just those things. And we ask it in the name of Christ today amen our sponsors include Heritage House, Patriot Insurance, and I rapture.com The Pro-life Team Podcast is a Ministry of irapture.com.
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