Listen to the Mary McClusky and Jacob Barr talk about, as they talk about Project Rachel.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and in our latest episode of the Pro-Life Teen Podcast, I had the pleasure of discussing Project Rachel Ministry with Mary McClusky. Project Rachel is a diocesan-based abortion healing ministry of the Catholic Church in the United States, which draws its name from the Old Testament book of Jeremiah, symbolizing Rachel weeping for her children and the Lord drying her tears. The ministry is deeply rooted in prayer and liturgy, focusing on conveying the message of forgiveness, hope, and healing to those affected by abortion.
Mary, the assistant director of Project Rachel Ministry Development at the USCCB Pro-Life Secretariat, shared insights into the structure and functioning of the ministry. She highlighted that Project Rachel offers both group healing events and individual one-on-one support, tailored to the unique needs of each person seeking help. The ministry’s approach is integrative, addressing both spiritual and emotional aspects of healing from abortion trauma.
A significant part of our discussion revolved around the importance of confidentiality in the healing process. Mary emphasized that the ministry provides a safe and private space for individuals to process their emotions and journey towards healing, irrespective of their faith or lack thereof. We also touched upon the role of men in this journey, acknowledging that they too need healing and support.
The conversation was a reminder of the compassionate and understanding approach necessary in addressing post-abortion trauma and the continuous journey of healing it entails. Mary’s insights provided a profound understanding of the depth and breadth of care offered by Project Rachel Ministry.
Reflecting on our insightful conversation, here are some hashtags that resonate with the content: #ProjectRachelMinistry, #HealingFromAbortion, #CompassionateCare, #SpiritualHealing, #EmotionalSupport, #JourneyOfHealing, #ForgivenessAndHope, #PostAbortionTrauma, #PrayerfulSupport, #ConfidentialHealing.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Mary McClusky :
Welcome to the pro-life Teen Podcast. I’m Mary McCluskey and I’m with Jacob Barr and today we are talking about Project Rachel Ministry, the diocesan based abortion healing ministry of the Catholic Church in the United States. We’re going to talk about how Project Rachel Ministry got its name from the Old Testament book of Jeremiah and Rachel weeping for her children, and how the Lord dried her tears. We also talk about how the ministry is based in prayer and liturgy, and how the abortion healing journey is really all about how all of us can share the message of forgiveness, hope and healing.
Jacob Barr :
These podcasts are not scripted. The ideas presented may not be the official position of the speakers, the related organizations, or the sponsors. These podcasts are freeform dialogues that may include brainstorming and trying on ideas to see how they fit. Please walk with us as we share stories and ideas. So, Mary, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. Would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a small group of executive directors of Cransey Clinics?
Mary McClusky :
Sure well, Jacob, thank you for having me it’s an honor to be on the proactive podcast. So my name is Mary McCluskey and I am the assistant director of Project Rachel Ministry Development at the USCCB pro-life Secretariat and taking a note from my husband, who always makes a joke wherever he goes you know, they say the longer your title is in Washington, the less you actually do so no, but no, i so my role is to help Catholic dioceses throughout the country to primarily in the area of pastoral care. So that’s two components here at the USCCB and the pro-life Secretariat and that’s pregnancy assistance but mostly my job involves helping dioceses to develop Project Rachel industry and that is the diocesan based abortion healing ministry of the Catholic Church in United States. So it’s, you know, basically my role is to meet the needs of the bishops and the dioceses and however they are best seeking to serve the people that are suffering from participation in abortion. So, you know, that’s everything from developing pamphlets to conferences to resources, being a kind of cheerleader coach behind the scenes, having lots of discussions and pointing them out, to pointing resources out to them. A lot of different things, basically.
Jacob Barr :
And what does a USCCB stand for?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah thank you it’s and we’re always kind of explaining acronyms here in this city. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops And you know, i work here and sometimes I’m still trying to, you know, figure out exactly what it is because it’s a little bit complicated if you’re not familiar with kind of the structure, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and how it works. But basically it’s an Episcopal conference and what that means is all the bishops throughout the country gather together as a body called the USCCBUS Conference of Catholic Bishops, and they form committees. And those committees each have a chairman. And the chairman directs that committee to do its work on behalf of all the bishops of the country around a specific issues and I am one of ten staff members who serve the Committee on pro-life Activities. So my work here in the pro-life Secretariat, I’m one of a team of people who we have a variety of different areas of pro-life work that we, that we’re tasked with, that we’re responsible for. And those areas are prayer and liturgy. That of course is, you know, found this the very foundation of everything we do and policy and advocacy, education and outreach. You may have heard of the Respect Life program, which is all throughout the country. There’s a new topic and kind of themes every year. And then pastoral care, which is primarily my area, but a lot of our work dovetails, you know, a lot of work in Project Rachel ministry, of course, is going to be involving prayer and liturgy, of course, because it’s, you know, it’s we’re the church. So of course that’s going to be a part of our work in the very foundation. But education and outreach, you know, a lot of the ministry involves teaching people who you know to people in parishes and at the bassism level about the effects of abortion on people and what kind of some of the needs are And outreach as well spreading the word that, you know, there are many people who think that who feel as if they have committed this unforgivable sin and they’re not worthy of God’s mercy and we’re here to say no, god loves you no matter what you have done and His mercy is far greater than anything any mistakes that you’ve made in your past.
Jacob Barr :
Going back to the prayer part of the ministry, what does that look like? Are you providing like written prayers for people to use, or as like an exercise are you putting together people to pray in certain ways like what does that look like?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah, it’s a great question well, so some dioceses when they begin the ministry or as part of their outreach efforts will do something called a massive healing or a massive awareness and so for those who are not may be familiar with the Catholic faith the Mass, the celebration of the Eucharist is one of the IT is the primary way in which the Church really, you know, offers that the sacrifice of the Mass for it it’s the primary way that we pray and so those kinds of you know, offering that sacrifice and celebrating the Mass is one way to of course pray asking the Lord for, you know, His guidance, His blessings, his help praising, worshipping Him, you know, for all the wonderful beautiful gifts He gives us including His love and His mercy. But it’s also a way of spreading awareness right as we, you know publicize the mass invite people to come we’re you. We’re making people aware of you know what exactly the Mass is about in this prayer intention that we’re specifically coming together to offer up to the Lord And but in addition yes what you what you what you asked about specifically was does the ministry offer particular prayers. Absolutely i mean there are you know dozens if not hundreds of many prayers that you know are either written or guiding people to pray just from their own heart. You know, for healing, for God’s forgiveness, healing for hope peace for you know, entrusting their child to God’s mercy and having asking for the hope of being united again with their child in heaven, in the in the fullness of life after they pass on. But of course I also want to mention of course that in the Catholic faith we have the sacrament of Confession, which is of course one of the beautiful ways that the Lord in our faith expresses, allows us to go and share with a priest and receive absolution and the graces of that sacrament.
Jacob Barr :
So the prayers that are you’re referring to are the mostly for people who have a post abortion. You know, there’s essentially people that are who have experienced the pain of abortion or is this also for people that are on the sidewalk who might be trying to reach out to women, you know, as they’re going into abortion clinic or, you know, in that parking lot?
Mary McClusky :
That could be 1 aspect of it i mean primarily our office is not particularly we don’t develop specific tools or prayers for people who are doing sidewalk advocacy. We, you know, we might. There are other groups out there that do that you know, we can point dioceses to sidewalk Advocates for Life, 40 Days for Life of course, many dioceses are involved with those groups. So it’s not in our necessarily our we’re not tasked with the responsibility of necessarily writing press, but that, but certainly you know all the prayer, the prayers and the liturgy aspects i mean that involves so much there’s, you know, innumerable ways of praying that you know that are available and out there it’s a it’s a matter of, you know, talking to a priest or talking to your Bishop about ways to do that Holy hours retreats i mean just so many different ways to pray, both people themselves who have participated in abortion, but also for those who have not to pray for the ministry itself. Many dioceses will have prayer groups that are specifically invited to pray for the ministry to pray for the team that does minister directly to people who are who are you know going on that healing journey and so you know everyone is really invited and called to offer up there’s prayers for healing and really, as a nation, if you think about it, we’re also not in a very particular individual one-on-one way. But each of us, even if we have not directly participated in worship ourselves, just our culture is so broken and we’re so in need of just that, this mindset, right of having that culture of life, of welcoming people no matter what you know, no matter how they’re conceived. And even beyond that, again, I want to stress for our office, pro-life is not just at the beginning of life, it’s at the end of life too. So you know, we have resources on euthanasia and assisted suicide as well and caring for people in there as they are. And the disabled, the sick, the dying those were at risk of being at risk of assisted suicide or euthanasia.
Jacob Barr :
So with all these prayers, can you think like, what’s what comes to mind when it comes to like seeing how God has worked as a result of these prayers or how God may be, may have answered certain prayers that can you think of any stories where you can say that, you know, here’s God’s fingerprints and how he responded or in some way has, you know, responded to some of these prayers?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah so i can think of first of all I think that the name project Rachel ministry. So the name of the ministry itself is taken from Jeremiah, the book of Jeremiah on the Old Testament where Rachel weeps for her children because they are no more and the Lord comes to Rachel and dries her tears and that’s kind of the, you know what I have seen reflected again and again in doing this work is, you know I have met many women that have, I’ve had the privilege of them having they share their story with me and in particular, you know, one woman I’m thinking of, she, you know, for the purposes of confidentiality, we don’t really share names or many details about people but I can share that she worked with us on a particular project and she, you know, she shared with me her pain and she really shared, you know what she had been betrayed by the father of her child and he had left her shortly after he learned of their the existence of their child and then she had the abortion and just her tears, her tears, exactly like Rachel wept but now I know her and I’ve the time that I spent with her she is a woman of such joy and trust in the Lord that you that i have really seen how God has transformed her heart. God has touched her and she has a relationship with her loving Father in a way that is just so beautiful to see. And you know, she trusts the Lord she loves the Lord she is absolutely, lutely convinced of his forgiveness of her. She has forgiven herself and she has peace. And that’s just the beautiful message, the hope that I have for everybody who has participated in abortion, that God can touch them and make them whole and they can go on to live this have this beautiful relationship with God and be this source of encouragement and joy for other people.
Jacob Barr :
Wow, what a what an amazing story of healing, emotional and just. Yeah, deep healing. So and essentially it sounds like that might have been connected with the prayer life or some of these prayers, whether that.
Mary McClusky :
Was Oh.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and so maybe she was the one who prayed it or maybe someone else prayed on her behalf i’m not. Maybe it was both.
Mary McClusky :
Yeah, well, she is definitely a woman of deep prayer and she always had been i mean, and just when she shared with me, you know, all the different ways that God kind of led her through, you know, the wilderness those are my words not her, but just LED her to people that in each of their own unique ways. You know, touched her heart and encouraged her along the way it reminds me of when I was actually, I think I must have been 18 was I met it was actually the first woman I had met who had shared with me her story and what she didn’t share a lot of details we didn’t have a lot of time to talk but at the time I was, I was doing a pro-life walk across the country called Crossroads and they, you know they’ve been around for, I don’t know 1520 years but anyway we met and she was asking me, well, you know we wore these big T-shirts that said pro-life cross them and she was asking what we were doing in her city and I told her and she said, you know i’ve had two abortions and I don’t believe anyone will ever marry me because how could they after what I’ve done. And my heart just broke for her and I, you know, i this was, you know I was a young fresh faced you know I didn’t really exactly know what I was doing i had not had experience with this before but I knew enough to know that I just needed to listen to her and my gut said just tell her God bless her just assure her you know and so I did and so we talked and I gave her my number and she tried to call the next day and where I was staying we were never able to connect again but we never i still pray for her sometimes And even though I don’t know if she ever got help with a ministry or I don’t ever know the end of her story. It gives me hope enough to know that I was maybe one in a series of people that if she did that maybe something I said encouraged her to open up to someone else or to go to the Lord at some future point in time or that others along the way had also been a part of maybe encouraging her and so I think that’s one of the messages I always like to share when I talk about, you know, interviewed or just talk about my work or I should not my work, but this work, our work, God’s work, right, of sharing this message is that each of us can be a part of it, right. And it’s really the Lord’s message, right, His message. And he’s the one doing the healing and we’re just the instruments in his hands that he uses and so it’s so important I think to always be aware that everywhere we go statistically that there are so many people that are suffering silently that we just aren’t aware have been involved in an abortion. And it’s not just the mother or the father if you think about, you know, the grandparents of the aborted child right. So they may have, you know, they don’t know what to do their 16 year old daughter is pregnant oh my gosh, we’ve got to, you know, let’s get rid of this problem well, it’s not. You can’t it it’s you know it it’s this, it’s is your granddaughter. You know this is a child and they may later on maybe in the, you know, they the rush of emotions, right. And they think it’s the answer and deep down they know it’s not but later on they come to regret this decision and so they’re mourning, right they’re mourning the loss. So it’s just always important to remember, you know, Survivor siblings there’s a woman named Teresa Bonapartas who does some work. She has retreats for Survivor siblings and some of the siblings will say when they discovered that a sibling of theirs was aborted later on. They share things like, wow, you know, I always kind of felt something was off i always kind of felt like there was a person in my life was missing and now I know it was because one of my siblings was aborted. So it’s just amazing that the sense of family that you know that people can have. So anyway, I so I just it’s always good to speak compassionately whenever we talk about abortion and remember that someone who has had a participant in abortion, or has had one and could be listening.
Jacob Barr :
So there’s this verse in the Bible James five sixteen and it I mean I can pull it up but it goes and then like confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed and the prayers of a righteous person availeth much and so I’m not a I’m not I don’t go to a Catholic Church i go to an evangelical church but I believe my understanding is that when confessing sins to a priest, I feel like that verse is being you know but probably be the reason probably for doing that because confessing your sins one to you know one to another so that you may be healed. And the prayers of righteous person avail as much i feel like that would support the idea of you know, of confessing sin to someone else to then you know, exposing it as you know, saying it out loud and then asking for someone’s prayers to you know, just having someone hear hear it and then also then asking them to pray. And out of curiosity, do you know as a Catholic, do you ever confess to another non you know, a person maybe on the same level, more so than always going to the priest above or is it is it usually? Obviously it sounds like it’s usually to a priest, but do you also ever confess to other people as well?
Mary McClusky :
Well as a as a you know one of the sacraments if you’re talking strictly in terms of you know the Sacramento seal of confession right it is strictly between you and the priest is you know in persona priest day we call it in the person of Christ specifically ordained as an ordained minister by the Bishop to absolve of the sin. No, you would never go to the confession sacrament of reconciliation to anyone other than the priest. But that said, in Project Rachel ministry many dioceses offer support groups and also retreats so in Project Rachel ministry, we have, we offer both group healing events and individual one-on-one And so that’s really the emphasis there is that each individual person their, you know, every person’s abortion is unique and so therefore their healing journey is going to be very unique. And so that’s really what we stress is how do we meet the needs of that individual person that comes. You know that is coming forward and saying, you know, I, sometimes they know what they’re looking for and sometimes they don’t sometimes there’s just full of pain and they know they want help, but they just don’t know what is offered and they want to find out more about how they could be helped so that element of the mutual, the kind of support from somebody who has experienced what you have gone through is available in those group kind of healing events where particularly in support groups where guided by a therapist sometimes by a lay professional or a lay team member of the diocese and ministry team, they’re guiding people through, sharing with each other, lifting each other up, encouraging each other, sharing about, you know, what is working, sharing scripture passages sharing, you know, talking about how the Lord is working and touching their hearts and leading them on that healing journey and so there is that element of kind of not confessing if you will, but opening up and being vulnerable with each other and so because you know the isolation, isolation and not sharing going through the world as if you feel alone, it is one of the after you know one of the ways that the abortion trauma and grief manifests itself and so it’s really important to be connected and have support on that journey.
Jacob Barr :
So when someone is there, usually a leader of the Project Rachel group, who will then be able to help and how many leaders are there, I guess in a Project Rachel group or how does a Project Rachel group operate like what are the key elements that take place when someone when they get together, is it’s usually over a weekend retreat. What’s that what’s it look like for a for someone to attend a Project, Rachel? You know, experience.
Mary McClusky :
Yeah well, like I said it depends really on what the person is looking for but basically the diocese is offering that it starts with a confidential phone call to the ministry and every phone number. Sometimes they’re, you know, they might first contact, might be an email, but basically an individual looking for help would call this confidential dedicated line so it’s only for abortion healing and the person, the leader, it’s sometimes the leader, the coordinator of the ministry is not always the person answering the phone, but it typically is. There’s not you know a lot of resources to have you know dozens of paid people and you know working in this ministry, but usually it’s the same person answers the phone and basically it depends on the person, the individual really kind of leads, you know again are they looking for. Usually it’s one of two things, it’s for usually either the spiritual component of healing or the emotional. Some people are not quite ready to kind of, you know face the Lord, face the spiritual and so they’re more for the emotional, right and then the two kind of go together so and project Rachel Ministry, what we call we call it the integrated approach to healing so somebody might be looking for a therapist who specializes in trauma and is has that knowledge and understanding and would you know even be pro-life because as we know not all therapists are necessarily going to be pro-life or agree that abortion is something that could traumatize someone. So it’s important for the ministry to have evaluated all the therapists that they refer people to so that you know, they know that therapist is on board with the entire approach of what’s offered so they can be sometimes referred to a therapist or referred to a priest or a pastoral counselor, you know someone for spiritual direction or for a group healing event it really kind of depends some people are not ready for a group event and so you know it it’s not it’s not a program it’s not a group per southeast, it’s a ministry it’s what can we do? How can we meet the needs of this individual. It’s not you know, they fit into this box or that box it’s we’re going to wrap around this person and give them what they need.
Jacob Barr :
So what happens when someone reaches out for help and they and they they’re a person who may not believe in God and how is there? Are they treated the same or are they treated differently and how, you know, how are they responded to?
Mary McClusky :
It’s a great question yeah. So Project Rachel ministry is open and available to everyone, people of people who are Catholic, non Catholic people of any faith or no faith at all. So basically the ministry is not going to it it’s going to be what it is it’s going to offer the fullness of truth, right so be authentically Catholic but at the same time, you know, Jesus himself did not always, you know, he used different language, he used different approaches with different people. Of course he was all knowing, but he was also all loving. So sometimes that all loving approach meant that, you know he didn’t always trying to think of, you know, the woman at the well, right. His experience with the Samaritan woman at the well, right. He did not come right up to her and say you have, I think I can’t remember how many husbands, 3 husbands. However many husbands it was I think it might have five oK. Ok.
Jacob Barr :
What guessing the lot?
Mary McClusky :
It was a lot it was a lot it was. It was more than what, right so he did not.
Jacob Barr :
Her current husband.
Mary McClusky :
Right so he didn’t come right up to her and say you know you’re living in said repent. You know he approached her gently. He led her and offered her to the living water and so and that’s that would be exactly the approach of someone who calls with no gates at all it would be to say we love you know, in so many words, not come right on and say we love you, but basically offering care for somebody and saying here’s what we offer. You know, we’re happy to listen to you, we’re happy to help you know what can we do that you that meets your needs with where you’re at, and then go from there and just begin to build trust, really, and give that person the care and compassion that they deserve and acknowledge i mean simply acknowledging the existence of their child when society doesn’t. That’s an act of love that I think speaks volumes.
Jacob Barr :
So what is a project, Rachel? Experience how has it usually take place is it like a weekly meeting? Is it a weekend like what is what how what’s the format usually look like?
Mary McClusky :
Well, it depends on what the type of healing opportunities going on so, you know, if it’s a one-on-one meeting, you know, if it’s confession, it’s going to be in the confessional if it’s with therapist, it’s going to be in, you know, a secure confidential place where you know it’s they have privacy and freedom to talk. But the, I guess the and then of course a retreat the support groups, those would take place at retreat houses or churches or sometimes yeah, I mean even you know I know some people will meet someone out at a coffee shop but the underlying principle is confidentiality. So you know the location of retreats are never advertised. You know, even the reason that a woman might be meeting with the priest is not, you know, the list of the priest names, the list of, you know, it’s all of that are involved with the ministry everything is kept confidential so it’s, you know, so that she’s secure that, you know, it’s not like everybody knows oh, that’s why that’s why I’m meeting with Father, right everybody knows I’ve had an abortion, right. She needs to feel safe, to be able to like, to build trust, right? And to share what she wants to share when she’s comfortable with whom, right and so that’s a safety issue too you know, there may be situations in her life she might be living in an experience, she might be living in a domestic violence situation, right where maybe the man who has coerced her into an abortion right. Could be the man that you know, the man she’s living with. And so the last thing you want to do is she’s going away for the weekend and you know, Oh well there’s she’s going to be at this retreat house and then he goes there to find her take her away other she’s endangered other people are endangered so we’re just very careful about confidentiality and privacy.
Jacob Barr :
And then who was the person who sort of was it Vicki Thorn, who created the project, Rachel, or is that or who is like the you know, the founding group, Who created this and when was it created?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah so Vicki Thorne founded Project Rachel in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee in 1984 and she began it as the one-on-one approach and then she I think it was too i think I’m trying to remember the year that she started no par National Office of Post Abortion Reconciliation and Healing. So I think it was eight or nine years later after she had you know great initial success in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee her model spread to other dioceses they started doing this. Then she started no par so and then in 2010 the trademark for Project Rachel was transferred to the USCCB and so then we added this the group healing aspect of it and so it really kind of you know we kind of expanded the approach into offering retreats and support groups as well so yeah, Vicky, Vicky then you know she my conversations with her, she really shared that she wanted to brought in the approach a little bit and share what she had learned with more than just Catholic dioceses and she wanted no par to be an organization that was kind of an umbrella organization. So that enabled her to travel around the country and share her knowledge about abortion healing internationally, you know all over the world so that was that’s the work that Vicki did, primarily through National Office of Post Abortion Reconciliation and Healing, otherwise called no par.
Jacob Barr :
And Speaking of the so if someone’s in, let’s say there’s a precis clinic, whether they’re in whichever state in the US or even or somewhere. If they wanted to connect with Project Rachel, would they be best off to connect with the local diocese or IS? And for some areas that may be more rural with less resources or less groups in the area, Is there like a Internet version or a national type of service that you know, for smaller areas to be able to connect with to then yeah, experience group healing via zoom or something like that.
Mary McClusky :
Yeah so a little bit of a little bit of both so project Rachel ministry is it’s a diocesan ministry so you’re always going to be contacting the diocese for the ministry. That said, many you know, as you know pregnancy centers right are sometimes referring some offer that’s not some offer a an abortion healing programs there but for a Project Rachel ministry. Some are connected to pregnancy centers where the approach of Project Rachel ministry is you know 1-1 after somebody is initially through the very intense emotional kind of quote unquote i hate to call it it’s not a not a crisis per southeast, but you know from the emotional mindset, right, of once this person has gotten through the decision to parent their child or make an adoption plan, right, then they’re no longer in that immediate emotional crisis, right but once she’s in a place to really focus on her healing right then deal with any prior abortion, then the pregnancy center hopefully has a relationship with the local project rachel ministry and can refer somebody may be looking to begin that healing journey to the dialysis and ministry. And then it particularly in the pandemic, you know, everybody went on Zoom, right and so there were some dioceses that really that were successful with having online Zoom meetings but really in person is the most ideal way to go and also the most secure. You know, Zoom bombers we’ve heard these stories of people zooming in. You know, it’s really, some people really had trouble with the idea of sharing something so personal and so painful online in a zoom meeting where you know anybody, you know, in their mind, anybody could come in at the last minute and you know, be in this online meeting, right and they didn’t feel secure sharing unless they were in person and they knew the room was private and secured and there weren’t others listening in. So it’s kind of a mixed, mixed experience that people have had with the virtual, the online meetings.
Jacob Barr :
And it sounds like the in person is probably 10 times better when it’s available. But for those that when it’s not available sounds like you know, Zoom is you know the virtual is reasonable but obviously only when yeah the in person is just not available perhaps I would I would expect So is there a cost for someone to participate in Project Regional or is there like a suggested donation or what does that, how does that side look like?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah so the ministry is pre. Ultimately there would be certain costs sometimes though, particularly on retreats it, you know some dioceses have moved to day retreats. Some people are finding you know, that you know they the it’s too difficult for women or men we know to go away for the whole weekend they can’t get away from their families that long or it’s too expensive. So they’re moving to sort of day retreats and but every effort is made to keep those costs as minimal as possible so the diocese really tries to make the ministry most events are free but in the case where there might be some costs associated with logic, particularly with a retreat that that’s really, that’s one of two examples I’m thinking of where there might be some payment involved. The other is with a therapist. So you know therapy, these are professionals and you’re paying for, you know their professional expertise. The good news is that many dioceses have will provide a certain number of sessions for free and then it’s a combination of either a sliding sliding fee scale. And so sometimes you know the 1st ten to twelve sessions are free and then from there the responsibility for the client to pay, you know might be a certain percentage of the total cost for the therapist so every effort is really made to make everything either free or minimal cost.
Jacob Barr :
So with all the with Tracy Clinic, executive directors or leadership teams listening, whether it’s a Catholic Tracy Clinic or an Evangelical Tracy Clinic, what would you say to that director, you know, as she is trying to help women, you know, heal from abortion and with referrals, How would you encourage them to consider, you know, moding or encouraging their, you know, connecting their clients with Project Rachel?
Mary McClusky :
Yeah, I mean, I would say that. I guess a couple of things come to mind. That one of the manifestations of abortion trauma, grief, pain, is an inability to connect with future children. And we also know that many women have, you know, repeat abortions. And so sometimes and sometimes women will have an abortion, and subsequent pregnancies are an attempt to make up for that abortion. And so promiscuous behavior even can sometimes be an effort to dull the pain of that abortion, right trying to seek love from places other than God, essentially, or good healthy relationships. So there’s all of that battling right in the heart of some of the clients that are coming to a pregnancy center and so it’s important to really minister to that wound, that prior wound that a woman has in her heart because it’s going to, I mean it’s for her sake, right for her sake and her relationship with the Lord, all of her relationships, her relationship with people in her life, her family, but also for her future children if she chooses and I and my understanding is that most many women choose to parent, adoption is not making an adoption plan, is not as commonly chosen for women who don’t choose to work they’re more likely to parent than they are to make an adoption plan so for the benefit of those future children in that relationship, it’s really important for them to eventually get healing for their abortion and for any prior abortions you know, sometimes it’s multiple abortions before you’re seeing her as a client in a pregnancy center.
Jacob Barr :
And when it comes to this, that the healing experience, how often, Well, what’s the journey look like is this, you know, I’ve got a feeling or my gut saying it’s like a journey, you know, throughout the rest of life more so than it being like a chapter or is it sometimes just a chapter and then someone feels completely healed, then maybe it resurfaces and that pain, you know, comes back. What’s it look like? Typical journeys.
Mary McClusky :
You’re absolutely right, Jacob, that it’s most women and men to men also you know, less men than women but come forward for healing and help anyway. But yeah, it’s typically the journey that happens over a long period of time so I guess I would say there’s two aspects to that is when someone would come forward for healing and then how long that the healing journey happens and I would say typically in younger people, younger people are more likely to come forward sooner. But there’s also a full, I mean there are women who sometimes decades and decades later, you know there are women now in their eighties who are coming forward for healing, right and so they’ve gone you know fifty sixty years and they finally are coming forward for healing. So it it’s and then as far as in terms of the length of that abortion healing journey, I mean there’s definitely a I would say you know once you start that intensive process of that healing journey and you’re and you kind of go through some of the steps of forgiving, reconciling with the Lord, forgiving yourself connecting with the child or children and entrusting that child to the Lord, forgiving those who may in relationships that may have been involved in the abortion i mean, there are some, you know, typical kind of sometimes naming the child’s commending the child to the Lord those are typical steps involved in the healing journey. But once you’re once someone is in a healthy, a good, a healthy place and has experienced some healing, there’s always more work to be done after the Lord kind of, you know, makes you whole and brings you to a certain place because there can be certain triggers in your life, right for example, the death of a parent, right where you may be thinking, wow, I haven’t told my mother or my father that I’ve had an abortion they still don’t know, Wow, They might go into heaven and see my child, their grandchild, for the first time. And there’s this fear, right there’s this fear. So that can be a trigger for to go back to the ministry and say hey I’m experiencing this fear of my mother is now in heaven with my aborted child. I need to process this with people who will understand I need to talk this through so it’s always going to be events in your life sounds sometimes movies whatever that might trigger that memory of that painful past. But the good news is that there’s always a ministry you can go back to where people will understand to be able to help you through that.
Jacob Barr :
Wow, that’s really good. So I think my last question is there also a men’s group as well it wasn’t even on my radar until you mentioned that. I mean, and obviously men need healing as well, but I just wasn’t even thinking about the men who may attend a Project Rachel group and I’m assuming you probably have women’s groups and if you do have a men’s group, it would be for men only, not Coed, I would expect.
Mary McClusky :
Yeah and that’s a question that we get a lot you know can men and women being grouped together and generally we don’t recommend that because sometimes the anger, you know, having men and men and women process emotions differently sometimes women might be less women and men vice versa like it might be a little less free to you know, imagine how the men in the room feel if the women are expressing rage at the men that you know, oh all of this anger or whatever they might it just it frees, it frees them up to process things in a way that is going to be best for them and be able to for them to talk openly with you know with the people in their in their group. So in terms of group events, yes we do recommend that the sexes are separated but yes, definitely Project Rachel ministry is for men in some dioceses they might call it something different like Project Joseph for Joseph Ministries because Project Rachel is a is the name of you know it’s a feminine name and so but men generally are you know it’s hard to get. Men typically come forward for help much less often than women number one their role isn’t even recognized i mean, the law says they have no right in a woman’s decision to abort or have an abortion or not right and so they feel disempowered. They feel as if they don’t have anything to they don’t. I mean, essentially they don’t often, as far as the law is concerned, have a say in the matter and so they feel kind of helpless sometimes they express an inability to protect the mother and the child sometimes they don’t even know that they are a father and then they discover this later so they’re grieving a child they didn’t even know existed. So there’s about seven or different seven or eight different ways that the man, the father can be involved in this situation and there’s the different, you know, different situations that he can be part of this story. But yes, for sure, you know, when they can reclaim that fatherhood, it’s a it’s a beautiful thing.
Jacob Barr :
And I guess why? Why i might have one more question this one, maybe a short one, but do you ever have pregnancy clinic leaders who want to be able to be better equipped to help their clients with good encouragement and direction? Have you ever had pregnancy clinic, leadership team type of people who may not need the healing themselves or whatever they do, but they’re looking to equip themselves to help others if you ever have those kind of people, reach out to Project Rachel.
Mary McClusky :
I do believe that does happen, yeah, at the at the diocesan level where they’re looking to, you know, to be partners and a lot of times what happens at the local level is people are, you know, the pro lifers know each other, right everybody’s that is helping the mothers and the children, right they know each other and they partner up and everybody is you know learning from each other and supporting each other And I mean I at least I on the national level i mean i know that a lot of the team at Heartbeat International a lot of the national some of the care net people like and I’m always learning from them and I always appreciate you know bouncing ideas off of them and learning about what they’re doing and so it’s there’s ever you know I haven’t participated in anything formally per southeast but I mean in terms of like a partnership we really view you know kind of as I said before you know abortion healing journey as something it’s its own separate work that doing that work is you know one of the things that can cause a woman not to come forward for healing is if she’s seeing triggers that may remind her of that painful past. And so in all of our messaging and all of our outreach, you know, we don’t have photos of smiling women with babies and you know all of those types of things like we’re very careful to recognize where she’s at because she’s not going to come forward if she thinks that anything, you know that we don’t get her right. And so we remove any potential barrier towards her reaching out for help we really want her to understand and him, the fathers too that we’re not going to be talking about. You know, the decision has been made. You have made that decision, the painful decision and now you’re ready to be forgiven and really work on the healing part and so that’s really what we focus on and make sure that painful reminders you know are not where we start. We start with her story, and then later on when she’s ready, you know, thinking about that painful past under the guidance of a of a licensed professional. And counseling is often part of that healing.
Jacob Barr :
Wow, thank you so much for being here, Mary i think this was yeah, this is a lot of good information, and I’m hoping that the people who listen to this will be able to be better equipped to refer and connect with Project Rachel and.
Mary McClusky :
Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for having me it was a real pleasure and an honor to be with you and to share.
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