The ProLife Team Podcast 68 | Brandon Monahan & Jacob Barr | Talking about New Technology

The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast 68 | Brandon Monahan & Jacob Barr | Talking about New Technology

Hear Brandon Monahan & Jacob Barr talk about the history of Heritage House along with Brandon’s vision to reach abortion vulnerable clients vis SMS on their smartphones.


This is Jacob Barr, and in this episode of the Pro-Life Team Podcast, I had an insightful conversation with Brandon Monahan. Brandon shared his deep-rooted history in the pro-life movement, tracing back to his grandmother, Virginia Evers, who created the “precious feet” pin, a symbol of pro-life advocacy. We delved into the history and evolution of pregnancy centers, discussing the shift from a handout model to a more empowering approach through the “Earn while you learn” program initiated by Brandon’s mother. This program transformed how pregnancy centers operate, promoting dignity and education for women in need.

Brandon highlighted the technological advancements in pro-life efforts, like Bright Course and Hope Sync, which provide online resources and text-based support to women. He discussed the importance of these tools, especially during the pandemic, allowing pregnancy centers to continue their support remotely. We explored how God’s guidance is evident in these efforts, adapting pro-life advocacy to modern challenges and needs.

The podcast also touched on the challenges of communicating pro-life messages, balancing logic, emotion, and credibility. We emphasized the importance of understanding and addressing the emotional aspects of women in crisis, ensuring messages are conveyed with empathy and care.

Throughout our discussion, Brandon’s passion for combining traditional pro-life values with innovative technology to reach and support women was evident. His prayer is for the love and compassion of the pro-life movement to break down barriers and reach those considering abortion.

#Hashtags related to this content:
#ProLifeMovement, #PregnancyCenters, #EarnWhileYouLearn, #PreciousFeet, #BrightCourse, #HopeSync, #ProLifeAdvocacy, #WomenEmpowerment, #EmotionalSupport, #TechnologyInProLife, #PandemicResponse, #ProLifeHistory, #ProLifeFamilyLegacy, #CommunicationInCrisis, #EmpathyInAdvocacy, #LoveOvercomes, #BreakingBarriers.


The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast, I’m Jacob. I’m here with Brandon, and we’re going to be talking about bringing hope and healing from an emotional standpoint to women who need it most, right? Right there on their phones.

So Brandon, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. Would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a group of Tracy Clinic directors?

Sure, absolutely. My name is Brandon Monahan, and I come from a long line of pro-life family members who’ve been active in the pro-life movement since, well, actually before the Roe V Wade decision, back when California was first allowing abortions many years ago. And through that line, my grandma, Virginia Evers, came up with the precious feet, and my mom and dad ran the business for a while doing both that and then Earn while you learn my mom came up with that.

Then I’m just the third generation moving along, doing very similar stuff, trying to help pregnancy centers save and change more lives.

Well, that’s odd yeah so I never really connected the dots that your mom started Earn while you learn because I know that you’re working on the videos like the new generation of Earn while you learn but didn’t realize that your mom had started that in the in the beginning, did she? Did she how was that like what’s the history of Earn while you learn?

Sure, absolutely i mean this really goes back to what pregnancy centers are now versus what they used to be. There was this time where most pregnancy centers were built on a handout idea, which is women would come and get a pregnancy test and if they needed any supplies, there was a supply closet that was open. Obviously that’s showing the heart of the pregnancy care center movement, just this desire to meet the needs of the women coming through the doors. But it had a negative side effect that was certainly unintended and that and that was that people would come in and they wouldn’t really, they would treat it like a government program it was not something they were thankful for is not something they were earning. It was just something that was there for them to grab. And it really didn’t have a whole lot of impact other than filling those immediate needs.

My mom saw this when she was running she had three different centers, saw that as a problem, and thought, there’s got to be a better way to do this. So originally Earn while you learn was built around this idea she came up with a lesson she asked her clients, hey, what do you want to learn about? And then she actually would write a lesson each week she’d write a new one, and that’s what she would teach. And they would learn that and then they would earn what’s called mommy money, which I think mommy money is pretty familiar these days but back then it was her idea and her alliteration to make that happen. And then they opened a boutique to have all kinds of awesome stuff for moms to shop for. And in the end, that changed pregnancy centers because the clients absolutely loved it. They loved that sense of pride in being able to earn the things that their family need needed they love that relationship that they built with their advocates Back then. They just called them counselors, but I know we’ve all changed advocates now, so they really loved it so much that the number of women coming in and the number of opportunities to speak into lives exploded for my mom’s center at some point actually around 5 modules as we call it back then her 25 lessons, she said you know what other centers should be using this and so she put it into a white binder printed out some sheets and shoved it in the front of it and called it earn while you learn. And after that it took off I it was in around twelve hundred centers and made a huge impact across the nation I would say so it’s like a staple of the, you know the history of the principle clinic movement like it’s.

Yeah, it’s almost universal it seems like when it comes to clinics having earn while you learn or something very similar but usually earn while you learn another staple or some. I feel like the baby’s feet is like iconic of like the, you know I remember when I was first connected to a Princeton clinic movement or when I first got a pair of the baby’s feet and we’re using them as like a tie pin i mean a tie, tie pin.

Yeah, exactly. And I think it does this from word for it for a moment. But As for that being very, yeah, also very iconic and like for me, it was one of the very first pro-life symbols that I connected with and I think for a lot of people it seems to be like a doorway or like an iconic piece that just sort of like symbolizes like a lot of what we do.

Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, the precious feet lapel pin was declared the international pro-life symbol back in 1975 So that’s when you’re saying it’s iconic it really

is. That was my grandma who came up with that and God bless her, she has a great idea she saw that picture by Doctor Seiko of a ectopic pregnancy at 10 weeks and said, you know what, that is a picture that everyone should say, should see he actually. So he took that picture and then a pro-life club asked, hey, can we publish that in our paper and they did so in the San Diego Tribune many years ago and my grandparents are from San Diego and they saw that my grandma said, OK, everyone needs to see that. So she called her friend Phyllis Schlafly, who was running the Eagle Forum at the time and said, hey, if I do this, if I invest in this, will you get some and Phyllis immediately said, you know what, we’ll take a thousand. And so she was the first person to order and after that we’ve distributed over 20 million now of those. And it has become kind of a symbolic piece that says this is the humanity of the unborn.

So the baby’s feet were designed based on a 10 week, You said a ten week old photo. Looking at that picture, I’ve got it right here. To tell you the truth. This is the original picture of a ten week old baby’s feet and you can see, oh wow, just the little toes and little feet. That’s where that came from and that was my grandma and grandpa. They saw that they were conservatives, but I’d like to say their view of conservatism and pro lifeness were the same thing, right so they loved our country they’re my grandma and grandpa, and they’re matching shirts that my mom made them even they really believe that loving the country and loving unborn babies were the same thing they didn’t see those as something to be differentiated because they believe that our country was inherently good. And so they wanted that goodness to shine through and the Roe V Wade was a huge shock to them because again, we don’t do things like that here. So their goal was to change back time to a time when babies were safe in their mother’s womb. And that’s where that picture really said to them, hey this is something that everyone has to see. And so and you’re connected with several businesses or you know ongoing efforts. So we have you have a break course and heritage house and then there’s the what’s the name of the texting that is that it’s got a new name.

Hopes Inc That’s right. And that one’s like a year or two years old, I believe right or OK, yeah so yeah, I mean, really what we’ve done is we’ve fallen into the places where there is a need to grow and so talking of the previous generations, obviously I’m more than a little bit blessed to be backed up by generations of amazing people. So I’ve got my grandma and grandpa who by the way, my grandpa was one of the top notch people he taught me how to work and he fired my brother for not working he just, and one of the best things that happened to my brother was he got fired. So the and he was a foundational. And then my dad and my mom being the heart of it, my dad being the steadfastness of it and having all of those in place has allowed us then now to reach into those additional places and the thing that I bring that’s a little bit unique is definitely the technological edge of pieces. I actually love programming i love databases, to tell you the truth that’s my SQL is my language I dream about and enjoy being a part of. So because of that, we have taken these pieces that my parents and my grandparents have been using for decades and moved it over into a technological format so Bright Course is the online version of Earn while you learn and hope sync is the online version of our literature that you can hand out to people, but instead of handing it to people, you can text it to them. It’s a little more complex than that, but that’s the basic idea of it anyway.

And can you share so the story of Hope Sync, I feel like the story of how it got started has God’s fingerprints on it just based on the timing, at least based on the timing, can you share the story of like how you got started and then, yeah, just sort of the risk you took and then how it sort of played out?

Yeah, absolutely that’s both Hopes Inc and Bright Corso, of course, Hopes Inc started with Raul Reyes, who is who was the CEO of Choices in Phoenix i think it may still have been called CPC Phoenix at the time. And he had this idea that you could bring to a woman, basically a chart that would reach her specific need for her specific situation so he would say, listen, we want to talk to you about this specific problem that is causing you to have this desire for an abortion, whatever it might be, from a body image to, you know, money issues or pushy boyfriends, whatever, doesn’t matter. You could talk through it. And so he had made a PowerPoint at the time and shown us the PowerPoint and of course my brain got going immediately when I saw this PowerPoint. And I said to him, I’m like, you know what, this is needed right now but here’s the pieces we need to add to it to make it even more effective to get it on to people’s phones so that we can have that piece. So we started programming it and it’s a pretty complex piece of programming at this point.

But while we’re programming it, we did this text integration that allowed us to text content to clients and that was good and all but you know we wanted that text but we also wanted the relationship side of things. Now bright course is up and coming because our new content is getting out there actually, we were inspired by Dave Ramsey of all things he and we went to one of his, you know what you call them, rallies, concerts, whatever. And he’s like, if you have an idea and you’re not bringing it to market because you want to be ready, just do it anyway so we brought out, brought out Bright Course without having a way to pay for it, which was awesome we’re like everyone, hey, go use it it’s totally free because we have no way to charge you. So we did that actually, it’s almost for eight months we had no way to do that because we’re like, hey, just go use it. So we’re using it, using it and then my friend Rich comes to us and says, you know, hey, I think you should be able to text lessons to clients now, we had experience with texting because of Hope Sync, but inside a bright course, we thought that was the worst idea ever.

And I told I tell Rich this almost every time I see him like Rich, that was the worst, best idea you’ve ever had. So it the reason it’s a bad idea is because we know that the power of a pregnancy center, it comes from the relationship that they have with the client and we believe that relationship was going to be harmed or degraded anyway from having that relationship via text we thought that’s not a great idea but we like Rich so we went ahead and we put that in and again we had that experience through Hopes Inc so we built it into Bright course. That was in January of 2020 Of course a couple months later, COVID hits. And so Rich is God’s messenger, I got to tell you, because without him that wouldn’t have existed. And then pregnancy centers across the nation were able to continue ministering to their clients. Was it ideal of course not but nothing was ideal for that year i mean, let’s be honest so they would send those lessons over, then they would call them and have a talk through the questions with them and continue that relationship. And it’s that because of that pregnancy centers were able to continue reaching their clients during that time and I want to make clear here, I think what’s I don’t want people to get this idea that I had anything to do with it. In all honesty, we were reluctantly following where God was telling us to go, and we’re very happy that we did. But at the same time, I don’t take any credit for it. I don’t think anyone saw the pandemic coming and so the fact that you had something you’re building, something that would work well in an unknown situation coming down the road is pretty phenomenal. It just speaks to God’s like, yeah, I mean, it’s miraculous is the right word yeah. That’s awesome.

So tell so I know that story what other story comes to mind when you, when some if I were to ask you like where do you see God’s fingerprints in the work that you’ve done in your family’s work or in the pro-life arena. Where else have you seen God’s you know direct fingerprints or working through this effort. Well, I’m going to take a little bit of a tangent here and it’s going to explain how I think God is working and it continues to work in here in our lives and in the different pieces that are coming together. And that tangent is into my favorite nerdy stuff and that is Elon Musk who is a nerds nerd. But if you follow him at all, he has a few different businesses, right so of course everyone knows space X, which he stated straight up that he wants to get to Mars. But then he also has the Boring Company, which drills holes underground that he’s able to make tunnels. And then I don’t know if you know about that one, but that is one they they’ve got great merch it just says the Boring Company and that’s it. And then he also has, of course, Tesla, which I think everyone is familiar with electric cars and when you put all of those together, what you see is a concerted effort he wants to go to

Mars now as a as a fellow nerd, I have no idea why it actually seems like a bad idea, but none the less he wants to go to Mars and he seems to be placing himself in a way that he can get there oh, I’m sorry i should have mentioned with Tesla, he also bought a solar first, Our First Solar or something like that and so he also owns the solar company. You put those together and it looks like he could launch rockets to Mars, dig underground because Mars is a caustic place to live, build structures underground, get power from his solar panels and solar company that it created. And of course, you don’t use internal combustion engines on Mars, you use Teslas. All right so now that’s a little bit of a side note.

I think God has been doing the same thing in the side of Heritage House with the team we have and with the people we have. All for the purpose of bringing all these pieces together to offer a solution that covers clients with that love, that covers clients with that information that is non judgmental but also pointing them to God in a way that starts from before they ever reached the pregnancy center. All the way until, you know their kids are teenagers and this is, this is actually, I should say until they’re until they’re safely ensconced inside of the church walls. That’s actually our ultimate goal is to get them there. And so if you look at where God’s fingerprint on it is this preparation of Heritage House to be able to do all of those pieces. Hopes Inc is that pre decision piece and then Bright courses that post decision piece and now we even have the pre appointment piece that we’re working on called Infinite Worth. And what we’re trying to do is bring together all these different skill sets into a single place that’s going to allow for the clients to be served in the best way possible. Yeah, I love how, Yeah it’s sort of the analogy of having, like, you know, essentially the other analogy would be like having the body of Christ is represented by arms and legs and all sorts of internal organs and you know, the feet and the hands and the eyes and so on. And really in order to have a complete strategy or a complete body, it takes several different tactics or several different groups or people or different pieces of a puzzle. And yeah and really in the end, we’re trying to, you know, trying to change the culture of life is a full body experience when it comes to trying to help someone where they are and then helping people yeah In order to get them into the church walls, essentially safe and growing and a healthy healing place that’s yeah that’s a beautiful analogy of God’s fingerprints really yeah. My you mean Elon Musk is a i got to say, I am such a nerd that I’m proud to have gone there i just want to throw no and it makes sense though he’s got a full set of tactics in order to try to take on like the major challenges of space travel and living on a remote planet with, yeah, a very probably unfriendly ecosystem or no ecosystem, I guess. Yeah that’s true.

Yeah so tell me yeah so infinite worth that that’s a that’s a new entity what’s your vision behind infinite worth. So infinite worth is a non profit or not-for-profit I guess is what people say and our vision there is initially and this is about as much as we want to say right now, but initially to act as a backup on the hope sync side of things to allow chats 24 hours with clients for that pre appointment meeting and this is this is really important i believe that we have to respond to the new abortion pill availability. We have to respond to the tactics and the strategies being used by the other side. We have to respond in a way that’s forward thinking and forward leaning so that we are reaching and having. Relationships with the clients, even before they cross the threshold of the pregnancy center and the pregnancy center still play a vital, vital role here but there’s this necessity to reach them and to talk to them and to be available and to be right there and immediately able to answer their questions. Hopefully even from we’re looking to have nurses on call 24 hours to be able to answer their questions and work with them. This would be through Hope Sync where every single center has their own phone number they can advertise and say that you know, text us, let us know and we’ll get this information to you immediately. And that’s something that will be built into Hope Sync so that you can have that backup and have that ability to have these people on call to back it up again. Our vision here is to say that clients need to have as much as possible they need to have that immediacy, to quality information, to begin that relationship before they’ve even crossed the threshold, and then to create that ability to pass off that client to the pregnancy center in a way that honors the pregnancy center in every way, but also makes it so that they’re able to serve that client the best possible. So infinite worth, we’ll start off by trying to connect with pre clients in a chat type of environment. Does that sort of what sort of topics will you be you think will be covered in that kind of space?

Yeah, I mean anything, if you look at our hope sink, we cover I think 89 different topics that are possible for conversation. So we went to pregnancy centers across the nation and asked, I think it’s 500 different centers and asked what are the things that your clients are feeling pressures them the most towards abortion. And we took those answers, we collated them and then we responded to them in three to four different ways. We made these two-minute videos and those two-minute videos would be their professional ID, someone like a lawyer or a doctor responding or in some cases ACPA. Then we also would have a someone who’s been through that situation responding and how it worked out for them. Then we have a scripted version which is what we call the educational, you know, it’s got a bunch of references and whatnot. And then we also have literature and text written on it and all of this is available inside of the chat to have that conversation so you can send a 2 minute video directly over to them very quickly and easily so that they have that on their phones.

So when you say the topics, it’s basically every topic that would come up. The difference is, and here’s the problem, a pregnancy Center, for many times it’s run on donations, It’s run on volunteers. And you know, they’re not going to be able to be open 24 hours a day. You know, as a matter of fact, a lot of them aren’t going to be able to be open 8 hours a day all week long because they’re smaller or whatever it might be so what we’re trying to do is answer that need and help come alongside the pregnancy center and say we will be there for your clients. And then when you come in the morning, you can read the entire chat we had with them and see that you know, would they have an appointment to come in.

So again, this has to, this specifically works for the Hope Sync, the people on the HOPE Sync system because it has that ability to chat with clients right now. But at the same time, it’s going to give them that ability to get out there with a number that’s it’s associated with Hope Sync, but not necessarily like the client wouldn’t know that. And so they’ll go out and they’ll advertise this and just say, hey, just text us at this number and 24 hours a day they’ll have someone who’s going to be able to respond. On top of that, we’re building widgets that go on websites that will say, you know, talk to a nurse and if they just click on it and they’re immediately able to text with a nurse right then and there. So having that instancy, I think that’s something that the immediacy that has come from the pandemic as far as medical care is a huge deal and that’s a response that we need to respond to as a pro-life side of things and be able to come and say you know what, we’re here, we’re waiting, we’re ready. You know we will be talking with you in within 30 seconds you click that button and we’re there to talk with you.

I know that a lot of clinics currently work with Bright Course and in providing these kind of pieces, I think Hope Sync, I’m not sure it seems like Hope Sync is newer and so maybe I’m not sure what the percentage of clinics that are using Hope Sync is but when it when it comes to the infinite worth piece and that’s obviously just brand new. So how would someone go about you know in order to connect with Hope Sync or soon or I guess another question might be is when is Infinite worth, you know when is the expectation that it might become available for someone to explore and use and try out.

Yeah absolutely. Our drop dead launch date is April 1st 2023 So that’s that is our launch date that we’re going to be able to answer chats for pregnancy centers that are on Hopes Inc so obviously we have a long way to go. We actually do have that executive director who’s going to be heading that up. She has a ton of experience in actually starting phone lines and chat lines, but she’s off, she’s hitting the ground running. I’m actually having some trouble keeping up with her she’s pretty amazing that’s awesome. And just getting that going, then getting our 24 hour coverage, a little bit of programming that has to be done. But that’s the hope is that we’re going to be able to offer to pregnancy centers across the nation the ability to have 24 hour coverage and we’re hoping to launch with 24 hour nurse coverage. That’s a little

bit more complex but and it requires some HIPAA canoodling whatever it might be called. But we’re working on it right now to make that the case.

So when it when it comes to the HIPAA, is it mostly like a disclaimer piece like saying something like by using this you’re agreeing to not share certain things or that you’re giving your permission?

Yeah, unfortunately HIPAA is a mess i think anyone who works with HIPAA knows it’s a mess it’s it the actual rules have been decided upon after the law was written and these rules, these that are given out, almost contradict the original law, which is annoying as I’ll get out to me as someone who just wants to know exactly what we’re supposed to do. The reason this applies is because these rules now state that if you’re not giving out your information via text is a preferred method. The idea, well, let’s back up. One of the main tenants of HIPAA was to give easy access to your own information. And so there were 31 different organizations who were sued because they weren’t giving access to a client’s information via email or, text because the client, that’s how they wanted it and I say organizations, These were not pregnancy centers. These were health organizations. And so the main push these days has been ease of access to the information along with the privacy piece. So they put in place, there are basically 3 rules that you have to follow it’s pretty simple. You have to tell them, one, that texting is not safe, as inherently safe it’s just not for various rather technical reasons, but one of them being someone can grab your phone and get into your phone. And the second is they have to agree to that and then the third is you have to document that agreement. So that kind of stuff we have to follow but then of course, in certain states you have a more stringent privacy rule, such as in California that we’re going to have to, you know, understand and work through even when we’re talking about medical information but I have a very strong belief that we should, as pro lifers, use the extent that the law allows to save babies. I mean, if it’s allowed, we should be able to do it, obviously, as long as it’s moral. So as long as something is moral and legal, we’re going to go for it and we’re going to work on saving babies in the best way possible awesome yeah so that makes.

Yeah and having and actually having like a nurse answer questions via this chat. Is it via chat or is it via text? I mean or I guess is that the same, it is the same so our system is built to be via text, so SMS and that’s intentional because there’s no install of a of an app and the rules governing texting and client content information allow for that and that’s why we’re going that direction avoiding that install. But on this at the same time we also are going to be having video conferences with them that’s built in so that if you if they can get on video but let’s just be clear everyone knows that the newer generations don’t want to talk to you, right they want to text you. That’s just the way it goes so we’re going to have both of those options. Of course, the goal is to get them into the center but along those lines, what is the best way to get them into the center how much of a relationship does it help if you’re having this conversation with them? Does that help get them into the center and that’s one of the things I think we’re going to be able to answer. One of the exciting pieces we’re going to be able to do is do a lot of AB testing you know, if we contact the client five times after they’ve agreed to an appointment with this type of information, are they more likely to show up or are they less likely and then make decisions based on that will allow us to have the greatest impact possible? That’s really.

And so right now and it seems like this is a new well, I mean some so like optional and extend has done.


And phone call services, and I believe they did. I don’t. I think they did texting as well, but it was always for appointment only they would know it wouldn’t be a nurse or a medical consult or information it wasn’t. It’s mostly just for appointment scheduling with a clinic near where the client happened to be I believe.

Yeah, I don’t, I don’t want to speak out of ignorance there because I’m not sure if they’ve changed lately i mean that used to be the case, but I’m not sure how long it’s you know if it’s changed or anything along those lines. But I do know one of the things that this line will be different and this is one of the big reasons that i got behind it is the reason it will be different is because it’s hope sync based meaning those it



Those it’s actually around 280 different videos are going to be able to be sent to the client so that you’re already creating that relationship and talking to the client in the best way possible. And obviously, we want to do it the best way, and we’re going to be looking at all the data to do it the best way. But our goal is to be able to not just get that appointment but then not just have a relationship, but also have content. So those three pieces I think have to be there to be key, and one is that they are relationship, content, and appointment, all three of those being there so that you’re answering questions already, you’re getting that connection already, and then you’re getting them into the center.

You do those three things, you’re going to be able to see that rise and that’s what we’re going for. Following the data to whatever is best for the client, and it seems like the data of, you know, appointment focus compared to information and then guiding someone to the appointment. You know the data can then show which performs better because appointments are so important for building rapport and trust and providing an ultrasound some point. However, yeah, if we can, if you can get a higher percentage of people to show up and have a small or no show and a higher, you know, appointment scheduling. You know if the data shows that showing, you know providing videos information increases appointment scheduling and show up rates then that’s a way to improve on this really important part which is drawing people into prancy clinics that have to have a yeah rapport building, ultrasound viewing 85 %, changing their mind from thinking abortion to thinking life.

But usually it seems like that rapport and trust is needed before providing life affirming information so that’s going to be a challenge to provide videos that are neutral or meet someone where they are without maybe turning them away and so that seems to be a, I’m not sure, maybe the data can show how that plays out, but it just seems like that’s a bigger challenge than providing videos to someone who’s already become a client. Yeah, now I’ll, I’ll actually speak to that specifically we have a video that is not necessarily loved by everyone in the pro-life movement, and it and it lists the pros and cons of your three different choices right. So it’s so you’ve got the pros of parenting and the cons of parenting oK, right there we’re already stepping on toes because now and you know, we don’t want to say there’s anything negative about parenting. I have six kids i got to tell you, there are some negative moments in life. It’s got 4 kids. And yeah, some days are a lot better than others. It happens, right? Yeah, exactly. And then of course there’s adoption and those options along there, the pros and cons of that.

Actually, for some reason, everyone is ridiculously comfortable talking about both the pros and cons of adoption. They love to talk about the cons actually, for some reason it’s like the bad side of things, I guess. And then we talk about the pros and cons of abortion and that’s where it causes some consternation inside the pro-life side. But the reality is that there is at least a temporary shoot. I forget the exact wording, but relief being able to say we are out, you know, I’m out of that problem, that problem is done and that relief is felt. And the reason I say that is because that’s a necessary thing to say to acknowledge the reality in a way that really does help them see that we’re not pretending here. We’re not bringing them false information we’re not sugar coding or whatever. We are saying look these this is a real thing and we’re real so when you say how do you have that life affirming, I believe that you’re just honest i mean we don’t have to, we don’t have to hide anything. The fact that abortion may provide a sense of relief that’s temporary, that’s OK to say. And because we know that the long term is much worse off and we know that the long term benefits of the other choices are obviously much better than the long term, the negatives that come from abortion.

So you’re right, it’s going to be ridiculously difficult to do those. We’re going to have to step across some lines that people are uncomfortable with. But the truth is, we are not speaking to someone who’s dead on pro-life We’re speaking to someone who’s considering having an abortion. And that being the case, we need to be speaking their language we need to be speaking in the way that they will hear it best and we need to be speaking honestly so that they do trust us because. Well, because we’re being honest. Yeah and I’m not an expert in this, but my understanding is that there’s a couple of different, like, ways to try and be persuasive like there’s logos, which is like the logical

way of providing positives and negatives towards a decision. And then there’s also pathos like the emotional, you know, positives and negatives and then ethos, which I think is it i’m not sure if it’s credibility or morality, I forget. But also having pluses and minuses when it comes to making a decision. So when it comes to like the you know, the back story of how you decide which pluses and minuses to use are you using logic or emotion or some kind of credibility or morality Like which which? Which type of you know decision making did you use for some of these videos or do you did it across multiple areas of emotion and logic.

And maybe yeah i love how you said that Jacob, because that’s we actually thought it through without thinking it through that way. But that’s exactly what we have when we have, we have the professional which is that is the argument from authority right so and then we have the we call it relational but obviously that’s the emotional. Yeah, about those things. And then we have the educational which is obviously the pros and cons so ironically what you just said is exactly what we did without even thinking. So it’s yeah, natural truth can be arrived from multiple different roads because it’s true. And it’s sort of.

A Yeah, that’s.

The same way someone else figured it out. Yeah, someone else can figure it out too. But yeah, So what i think we find though, in a lot of cases, what’s most effective is that Etho side, which is the emotional, I’m sorry, not the ethos, Pathos, emotional, whatever. The pathos. Yeah, the one. We didn’t use those words. But yeah, the relational side, right? Someone’s gone through that story but I actually think there’s a key here i think most people need to hear the relational side so that they’re they need to hear that you care. They need to understand that you understand. And when they do that, then they will hear what you think. So being able to hit it from that direction and being able to add that piece of it and do it, here’s the other challenge is do it in a professional way. So they have to feel cared for but not feel care for like they’re going to their grandma’s which you know, i love pregnancy centers that are like grandma’s that’s awesome, that’s great. But at the same time for a professional chat line that you know where we’re sending them that information, we do need to come off as also professional as well so professionally caring for people is what has to be done so we have to hit their emotions. Help them understand emotionally what’s going on and then appeal to their higher intellect that comes out of that emotional trust that’s built up and I think yeah emotional, the emotional connection relationship building connection I think is the right place to spend majority of the effort and time and focus. Because I feel like when someone’s in a crisis logic is not something that they necessarily have the bandwidth or they don’t necessarily have the wherewithal to actually you know consider and I think logic is sometimes something that you know people that have the ability to step back and consider options is something that you know when logic will play a heavier role and when someone’s got a crisis situation logic is not something that’s it’s easily considered or yeah, just simply measured or thought about.

But emotion I think is a great place to spend time. I actually have a an apologetics masters and we talked a lot about the problem of pain and they actually called the problem of pain 2 separate problems. Your first problem of pain has to do with it, the intellectual problem. The second problem of pain has to do with the emotional going through it in the moment problem. And that second one is something that has to be answered, has to be answered well, and it has to be answered with empathy and love and concern and care for the person, not the intellectual argument that you’re going to win with. So, Brandon, what is one of your main prayers when you know someone who has been involved in the pro-life world for a long time and your family’s been, you know, you have generations of pro-life work and passion and commitment towards saving, saving those who are most innocent and most vulnerable. What is one of your prayers that you would like to maybe have? You know, for those who are listening, they could join you in praying? Yeah, absolutely. I think very simply that the walls that are built that are deflecting the love of the pro-life movement will be broken down so that those who are considering abortion will feel and know the love of both those who God is placed there as well as God himself. So that’s where we need to go we just need to chip at that wall and actually ask God to just break it down so that love is known. And when that love is known, I honestly believe lives will be saved and changed by the millions if they are able to break down that wall and accept the love that is there for them.




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