Hear Fr. Frank Pavone, Pastor Eric Cepin and Jacob Barr in the first episode of “A Pastor and a Priest”. Listen to Fr. Frank and Pastor Eric discuss their view on a few prolife topics.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and in this episode of the Pro-Life Team Podcast, I had the honor of hosting Pastor Eric Cepin and Father Frank Pavone. We embarked on an insightful dialogue, focusing on the common ground between pastors and priests in addressing pro-life issues. Our conversation was rooted in a spirit of unity and shared beliefs, steering clear of divisive topics.
Pastor Eric, from The Village Church in Tucson, Arizona, shared his insights on the importance of community support in pro-life efforts. He emphasized the church’s role in embracing and assisting those facing unexpected pregnancies, reflecting the early church’s dedication to life and care for the vulnerable. Pastor Eric’s approach is grounded in the belief that every life, seen or unseen, matters deeply to God and, therefore, should matter to us.
Father Frank Pavone, a Catholic priest and the National Director of Priests for Life, shared similar sentiments. He highlighted the ambivalence often felt by individuals considering abortion and the powerful role of hope and support in changing their decisions. Father Pavone stressed the significance of understanding the development of the unborn child, offering compassion and mercy to those who have undergone abortions, and intervening for the helpless as central to the pro-life movement.
Our discussion also delved into the personal experiences and stories that have shaped our perspectives on pro-life ministry. We discussed the impact of witnessing life-saving decisions and the generational blessings that follow. Both Pastor Eric and Father Pavone shared powerful stories of hope and transformation, highlighting the miraculous nature of life and the importance of standing up for the unborn.
As we wrapped up our conversation, we talked about the practical aspects of counseling individuals facing unplanned pregnancies. The key takeaway was the importance of providing a supportive and understanding environment, educating individuals on the development of the unborn child, and sharing stories of others who have faced similar situations. The goal is always to replace despair with hope and to assure individuals that they are not alone in their journey.
In summary, this podcast episode was a testament to the shared commitment of pastors and priests in the pro-life movement. It was a reminder that, despite our different backgrounds and denominations, we stand united in our dedication to protecting life and offering hope and support to those in need.
#ProLifeUnity #PastorAndPriestDialogue #ProLifeMinistry #SupportingLife #HopeInUnexpectedPregnancy #CommunityInProLife #CounselingUnplannedPregnancy #CompassionAndMercy #UnbornChildDevelopment #SharedProLifeMission #LifeAffirmingChoices #ProtectingTheUnborn #FaithInActionProLife #TogetherForLife
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Jacob Barr :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i am Jacob Barr and today I am joined by my pastor Eric Sepin and also Father Frank Pavone. In this episode, we’re going to try something new. This episode is built on the concept of a pastor and a priest, where we have a pastor and a priest sharing a dialogue and conversation about pro-life topics. And we’re going to focus on the 80 % of common ground that pastors and priests share. And we’re going to avoid the divisive topics that pastors and priests may be on different postures on and eventually maybe after three of these Pasture and Priests episodes, then we’re going to bring in that 20 % possibly at the 20 % level but for the first three episodes, the plan is to focus on the 80 % of common ground and really just to hear a pastor and a priest reflect on the same topic or peace and a civil and friendly and loving Jesus following manner. And we’re essentially going to get to listen in as they dialogue in this space.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
So the pastor.
Jacob Barr :
Eric and Father Frank Pavone, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. Pastor Eric, would you introduce yourself, for those who may not know you, is that you’re speaking to a small group of pricey clinic executive directors?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Sure well, you already introduced me my name is Pastor Eric first name Pastor second name Eric. Or as the kids call me, a church because they show up in church and there I am. So I’m church. But yeah, I we’re in Tucson, arizona and I’ve been a pastor of the Village Church for 20 plus years i helped start it with my Co pastor Rod, who just retired today is his retirement so yeah,
Jacob Barr :
And actually i’ll end your introduction by saying the reason why I’m doing this podcast in this episode is somewhat based on one of your podcasts which is which is 2 pastors sitting down discussing ideas over breakfast. We’ve been called Bait Over Breakfast.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
I do have. I have a number of podcasts that I do, yes.
Jacob Barr :
And that’s one of them and then, yeah and I was thinking, yeah, two pastors sitting down well, this. And here we are we have a pastor and a priest sitting down, one at nine AM one at noon.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
So.
Jacob Barr :
It’s hard to do breakfast or virtual breakfast, but so yeah, so Father Frank and many people know who you are who are listening, but would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a small group of crazy clinic leadership team?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Absolutely, yes thanks. Thanks, Jacob, and good to be with you, Pastor Eric and brothers and sisters. I’m a Catholic priest. Father Frank Pavano i was ordained in New York back in 1988 but I’ve always had a passion for the pro-life cause and after a few years of ministry in the parish, which I enjoyed very much, I asked and received permission to devote my ministry full time to saving the unborn from abortion, to helping churches to reach out and educate and also serve the moms, the dads who feel that they could not handle a child and may be tempted to abort. Help the churches step up to the plate to provide those alternatives to abortion in partnership with the pregnancy center movement. Also help people to heal from the wounds of abortion. So Long story short, in 1993 I began this work as full time national director of a ministry called Priests for Life. But it’s not just for priests and it’s not just for Catholics, it’s for anyone who wants to help end abortion. We’ve been doing that ever since and this is a meaningful conversation and opportunity for me because the fact is that the pro-life movement embraces the entire body of Christ and in the course of my work in this movement, that’s been one of the most enjoyable blessings of the whole thing. It is that this issue brings Christians together and brings God’s people together in this fight, and today’s just another manifestation of exactly that.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, that’s actually sort of what I was hoping for in this podcast, which would be to focus on, well, the common ground between evangelicals and Catholics. And so a majority of what I’d like to have this podcast, you know, it’s time be spent as on common beliefs more so than like disagreements, which is only a minority, but usually those minorities end up usually becoming like the primary topic of many conversations but the 80 % that we have that’s common ground I think would be very, you know, it makes a lot of sense for us to focus on what we do share and you know, the bridge that we have between different churches, different denominations, different groups. And so I’d like that, yeah, try and focus on the bridge more so than the differences perhaps.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
So I’m thinking we could start off by.
Jacob Barr :
Reflecting on Psalms one thirty nine i wasn’t sure if we should. Oh, is it OK, Pastor. So your eyes. Oh, good oK, So yeah, talk about Psalms one thirty nine and we could read through it or we could just talk about it what would the What would you guys prefer?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
You should read it.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Ok.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
All right oh, in my boat.
Jacob Barr :
Ok.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Won’t make, won’t make easy with all right.
Jacob Barr :
Psalm one thirty nine. So to the choir master, a Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down, and when I rise up, you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways, even before a word is on my tongue. Behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me behind it before and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high i cannot attain it. Where shall I go from your spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there if I make my bed and shul, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me. Be night. Even the darkness is not dark to you, and the night is bright as the day or darkness is as light with you. For you formed my inward parts you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works. My soul knows it very well. My fraying was not hidden from you. What I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. How precious to me are your thoughts, O God, how vast is the sum of them? If I would count them, they are more than the sand i awake and I am still with you. Oh, that you would slay the wicked o God, O men of blood, depart from me. They speak against you with malice, malice, intent. Your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred. I count them, My enemies search me, O God, and know my heart, try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way of everlasting amen.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Amen.
Jacob Barr :
So, Father Frank, what are your thoughts on this?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Passage you know, it’s no surprise, of course, that you chose this Psalm it’s one of the favorites among pro-life people. It talks about the development of the baby in the womb and despite however, the fact that this Kasam is so often quoted in a pro-life context. I think it’s appropriate just to start by taking a step back and realizing that when we talk about pro-life and the scriptures, even more important than the finding particular passage where it does talk about the child in the womb is to see the overall themes of scripture the dominion of God over human life, the blessing of children, the reality of justice you know, intervening to save the helpless like God did for his people of old as He does for us in Jesus Christ, we cannot save ourselves. We need a Savior. The this idea of intervening for the helpless, the teachings about caring for the poor and the weak and the outcast, and Jesus breaking down false barriers that people placed between different groups of people in society jesus went for those on the outskirts, on the fringes of society, and we see how the unborn are marginalized in a similar way. The victory of life over death, the victory of love over hatred and exclusion, all of these biblical themes feed our pro-life convictions. This Psalm in particular does so not only because it talks so beautifully about the development than God’s work informing the unborn child, but also you notice it’s talking about, hey Lord, you know everything about me. You are wherever I go. And I mean, you see right through me is another way of saying what the psalmist is saying here to me that counteracts this notion that we see among those who are adamantly promoting abortion. No, I’m not talking about the women who are confused and, you know, go and get an abortion we have done nothing but compassion for them. The people who are, like, animately promoting this as a ’cause, they’re saying just the opposite of what this Psalm says. They’re saying my life is mine. It’s my right it’s my choice i know what I’m doing i have my reasons, you know, and the psalmist here is saying, hey, Lord, you know me better than I know myself. Test me and if there’s anything wrong in me, Lord, you be the judge. It’s exactly the opposite of this adamant you know, my body, my rights, my choice kind of mentality. So those are some of my thoughts about the solve.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, that’s really good thank you, Father Frank, Pastor Eric, how would you reflect on this Psalm and in light of abortion and life and things like that?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Well, I think there are two interesting things and I would just agree with Pastor Frank that the themes that come out of this, you know, yes, it’s a very popular pro-life passage, but also just the beautiful themes of God being in control and God knowing. And when you are in the position of caring for people who are in trouble and standing between injustice and the weak, you sometimes feel like you’re the one fighting and it’s up to you. But i think we sometimes end up thinking that we we’re it we’re the ones and I think that’s really important here is that God knows everything all the details and i think that that’s really fascinating to me because sometimes we believe that if we don’t do it everything will fall apart and God doesn’t really know when we’re fighting this battle that seems overwhelming and I think this passage really clarifies and says no he’s not just intricately involved in those who are suffering he’s intricately involved in all of our lives and knows us deeply and he knows the people and he put them together even those who are committing injustice he made them and he formed them and he cares about them And so that I think that’s a powerful part of this. I think the other part of it that, you know, sometimes we forget that we gloss over is this like, you know, the bloodthirsty, you know, they should go away from me and the people that we are, you know, that Pastor Frank or Father Frank was describing. You know, it’s disturbing what is happening in our culture and it’s disturbing the way people are talking. And what’s interesting here is that David has a special position as a king who is saying no like this is injustice in my in my country this cannot be go away from me. And yet what’s interesting is that you go into the New Testament and Paul starts talking about, oh, our enemy is not flesh and blood. Our enemy is the evil behind these people and the themes and the powers and the spiritual forces that are pushing hard on our country and when you think about abortion in particular, it’s this, I mean it’s it is like this very much a cleaned up sanctified, you know, sacrifice to Baal. And that we have that doesn’t look as terrible in our modern minds as a place with an altar where people are stabbing babies was you know cutting them up and sacrificing them to idols. We don’t have that but that’s what’s going on. And so it’s this. So when you read just how detailed God’s involvement in our making and I think here in some ways David is looking back at Adam and how God formed Adam in the depths and how he created him intricately and saying that way that he spent on Adam, he spends on all of us like that this we matter. And so yeah, it’s a, it’s a powerful thing and then I love how he just says, hey God, you know everything and oh, by the way, search me because I don’t know everything even about me. I think that’s a really interesting kind of thing that’s happening there. Yeah those are my thoughts on it.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, that’s so follow Frank, any thoughts after hearing what Pastor Eric’s mentioned?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Or oh, fantastic, Pastor Eric, thank you for that and you know, i i’ve always said for many years that we need more ministers of God being willing to say, you know, this is what we see in the Old Testament with the sacrifices to bail. You know as you as you pointed out as you well know you know that shedding of innocent blood in the days of old is what ultimately brought about the exile and God’s people were taken away from their own land because they soiled that land with the blood of the innocent and we read about this. It is sacrificing their sons and daughters to demons. God hates the shedding of innocent blood and when innocent blood is shed on the land all the people on the land have to answer for it. So we go back to the beginning, the first blood shed. Cain kills Abel and Abel, although now unable to speak. Nevertheless, his blood speaks, cries out from the ground, and God hears it, and God goes to Cain where’s your brother? Where is he? And then, you know, you continue reading on in the in the Old Testament and I always point out in a lot of my pro-life talks about in Deuteronomy 21 there’s a passage where God says if you find a corpse that’s in the land, OK, and you don’t know who killed the person, he sets out this ritual he says call the priests in and gather around and pray. Lord, our eyes did not see this deed our hands did not shed this blood. Forgive your people the guilt of innocent blood. And I always thought that was interesting because God is asking his people to pray for forgiveness for a sin they didn’t commit because blood was shed on the land and that’s so important to God and it should be so important to everyone living on that land. And then when you think about abortion going on in our land and it’s like, OK, innocent blood is being shed, but this time we do know who’s doing it. It’s publicly advertised. We know the these abortion facilities they exist they’re advertising their quote services. And boy do we need to be praying too many believers will say, well abortion is wrong yes, I would never do it, or at least I hope I would never be tempted to do it. But if somebody else is doing it, that’s none of my business. But scripture is telling us it is our business it’s our business if blood is being shed on the land, just somehow intervene. We’re not called to judge people, harass people. We’re not we’re not. It’s not that we’re against people. It’s that we are for the helpless we are for the innocent. We are for the victims. And we can’t afford to say that it’s none of our concern. Scripture makes it our concern so that’s it’s like it’s important biblical teaching that intersects as you just said with this, with this Psalm.
Jacob Barr :
Any more thoughts from you, Pastor Eric?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Well, i was just thinking about what he was saying and I mean, you know, Father Frank, you could probably correct me on this because I’m not historically as confident on this but you know, the evangelical movement, from what I understand until Roe V Wade, it really doesn’t have a voice in the abortion like we just don’t talk about it, right whereas the Catholic Church historically spoke about it. And so in some ways we are though we I have a lot of fervor I think as a group of people tend to be kind of newbies to this process. You know in the sense of being in the movement and caring about it and so there and then we have some interesting political marryings that have made that you know in some ways hard I think but so just as i reflect upon that i guess what I was thinking is just, you know, i do also experience that with people of yes, abortion is wrong and there is a theological struggle with how am I to work in a world. And operate as an as someone who cares and is engaged in the evangelical world like we struggle with that and maybe it’s because we’re kind of angsty in our way of being, but yeah.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Yeah you know and I really enjoy the, you know the partnership that has evolved as you say historically i mean now, you know, we have gotten just a great unity going and you know, I speak out a lot in my own travels and speaking, I would say probably a good 40 % of my audiences are evangelical or denominationally mixed groups simply because the movement has evolved in that way that you just described and it’s a it’s a beautiful coming together and again, Biblically based, you know, Biblically based in love, not in judgement, in mercy. I mean the people who are doing the pregnancy center work, as Jacob, you said at the beginning are so much a part of our audience here today. They’re exercising the mercy of God. They’re showing the compassion of God intervening for his people. And we do the same thing for those who have had abortions. Mercy triumphs over judgment. You know, we talked about the blood speaking out well as the letter to the Hebrews tells us that the blood of Christ speaks out even more eloquently and it overcomes that voice of judgement and it says no i want to reconcile you to the Father. I want to heal you. The door is open now for forgiveness and peace and so many people and I think Pastor Eric the I’m sure you see this too that the unwillingness that many Christians might have to get involved in the fight to get involved in the pro-life movement might be because sometimes they’re looking at the movement as a movement of judgement you know all your people are you’re condemning abortion but they see it as condemning them and I always try to say to people you know we’re not here point to point fingers of condemnation. We’re here to extend hands of mercy and of hope that the mission of the pro-life movement is to replace despair with hope. Because as those who are involved in pregnancy work listening to us now know it’s not freedom of choice that brings someone to the door of an abortion clinic. It’s the feeling of having no freedom and no choice. It’s the it’s the power of despair that brings them to the door of the clinic. We come along as agents of hope as Proclaimers of hope and say hey you’re not alone. You know, like the this beautiful Psalm one thirty nine says it god is with you, and therefore we are with you. Don’t despair. Take our hand. Take our help. Have New Hope and let’s do what’s right for you and your baby.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Yeah, not like that.
Jacob Barr :
So this last Friday I was at the abortion clinic that’s near, well in my city, near actually about a mile, well less than a mile from our church or pasture it’s a pasture. And I was there on the sidewalk praying. And the response, well, so out there on the sidewalk there’s about three or four older ladies who did the Rosaries on Friday mornings. And then there’s about three other three or four other people, probably evangelical, who were out there praying and holding some 40 days for life science right now. And then I was out there on the sidewalk. I started to pray and the response from the oh and on the Planned Parenthood parking lot area they have 5 escorts to escort women from their cars to the building and then they have one security guard and so I was out there praying and the response from one of the escorts was to play death metal from their phone. So like, you know, put their phone right in front of me and just play death metal and.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Which is?
Jacob Barr :
Morning i took one to Satanic music from UP before I can tell I don’t know what they’re saying because I can’t understand a single word of the death metal.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
But.
Jacob Barr :
It seems like it’s satanic music, but it just seems like it’s, you know, as clear as you can get between good and evil when it comes to, like someone praying compared to playing death metal as your spot like it doesn’t seem like there’s a grey sound in the middle, and so it just seems like it’s a pretty clear, distinct, pretty clear, pretty clear difference. So right, What I guess the next.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Question that I have.
Jacob Barr :
For the two of you would be or a request is please talk about something that pricey clinic leadership may find encouraging so this is like a blank question, I mean a blank check kind of question where you get to fill in how you want to respond so we’ll go to you first posture eric, why might you say that you think, frankly clinic leadership teams might find encouraging? What might you want to share?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Well, I think I would just go back to the Psalm and i think being in ministry for 20 years and working with people in a lot of hard places because that’s what our church does, there can be a lot of despair as the person who cares. And a lot of I think what’s interesting about this Psalm is that there’s a lot of introspection that’s built into it and I think my encouragement to people who are working and caring for people and hearing the hard stories and wanting to step into those and help and engage is there is a beauty in that god knows you and God knows them and God is not powerless. Like, we sometimes forget that we think that he is not. He doesn’t actually have power. We think we have the power and I think what’s beautiful about being in places like Cans of hope or in crisis pregnancy centers and working there is that you are standing with Jesus because that’s exactly where Jesus is. And so and he knows you and he knows them and he is actively working. And so you have this beautiful opportunity to watch that and join him in it because he cares deeply for those women way more than you do, way more than you do. And he knows them and he knows how they were formed, and he knows their stories of trauma and he knows the stories of the trauma of those little babies who are inside of them experiencing all of the trauma. And he and so I think there is a piece that you can have an arrest in caring for people and that you don’t have to carry their burdens that you can actually allow Jesus to carry them and join him in introducing people to him and really bringing him out of a place of despair and into hope hopefully. And so I also think you’re in a spot of the miraculous. So you get this, you get to see the miraculous because you have positioned yourself in a place where the miraculous can happen and babies being born is miraculous in itself so right because I think this is the hard part you know and I think the struggle people struggle is that it’s easy for me to look at a little child who’s suffering and have my heart turned right and want to engage and so but babies in wombs are silent sufferers and I think we forget because of the way the fall has affected us. We easily disregard what we do not see. And so I think you and I and people who are in this part of the front line of the gospel are people who are speaking for the unseen and the unheard. And they’re calling, they hope, they’re calling mothers and fathers to bring that into the light, to bring God’s creation forward so and God loves that and he’s in it so i think my encouragement would just simply be he is a powerful God. You open your mouth and the Spirit will work.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
That’s so true and it’s so much the experience of so many of these folks that work in the pregnancy centers. You know, i I’d say to never underestimate the ambivalence that a young mom and dad have when they approach abortion or approach the abortion facility or come to the center saying, hey, we really think we need to have an abortion. There’s so much ambivalence and that ambivalence is the open door to their mind being changed and enabling them to embrace life it’s so much so that for example I’ve had people that have come to me and said, hey, you know, i was scheduled my abortion but I didn’t end up having it because on the way driving to the clinic i got lost because they made a couple of wrong turns. They said OK, well maybe that’s maybe that means I shouldn’t have this abortion and anyway I hadn’t have the child or someone will say, you know I saw two or three people praying there or many maybe 20 or 30 praying at that abortion facility. I didn’t even stop my car because when I got up at that morning of my appointment, I said, Lord, if you don’t want me to do this, tell send somebody to tell me to stop. And that was the answer to their prayer. And those people standing there never knew that they, their cars were driving by and, you know, they don’t know who’s in those cars. So they didn’t even stop and this happens repeatedly. And the ambivalence people have we should never. The other side wants us to think, oh, you know, when a woman chooses to have an abortion, that’s it. She’s rock solid. You’re not going to change her mind she’ll crawl over broken glass, you know, to get that abortion so don’t even bother setting up those laws to be obstacles in her way. This is not true at all. She’s extremely ambivalent. And that’s why the pregnancy center work is so powerful and yields so much good fruit. I’ll tell you a little story just happened the other night i was in Orlando, not far from where our office is headquartered, and there was a big pregnancy center there that had its annual banquet, JMJ Pregnancy Services. I brought a special guest to the banquet. She was a woman that JMJ Pregnancy Services served 28 years ago because she was already in the waiting room of an abortion facility in this area. I was with a small group of people praying outside. She saw us all praying outside, and that gave her the courage to get up and leave that waiting room, come out to the sidewalk. And she said, can you people help me? They said yes. They brought her to the center. So six months later she asked me to baptize the baby. She was a Catholic and she kept in touch for all these 28 years since then. This was 1994 She kept in touch. So at the banquet the other night she brought her daughter who was saved that very day and her daughter had her two daughters with her. And when the people at this banquet saw that mom, the daughter, and the two granddaughters, it was like, Oh my goodness, the victory of life and the generational impact of the work that the pro-life pregnancy centers do right there before our eyes was such a cause of joy and i offer that as an encouragement to all of us continue doing this work.
Jacob Barr :
That’s really good. So i was at a retreat, a Prairie tree at a Saint David, it’s in near Tucson, arizona. And we were going out into the desert to listen to God and just write down everything that we said and then write down what we heard to try and, well, essentially to try and identify God’s voice. And one, the one of the very first things that I heard on my very first Prairie treat like this was I was talking to God about, you know, the beautiful rocks and the trees and the plants. And I said, I really like everything out here god, except that noise on the highway. I shouldn’t have feel like that’s me sometimes sort of awkward and, you know, it doesn’t really fit in and then God said that noise in the highway represents, you know, every person in those cars is someone that I love. I remember him saying that to me in my mind, like, you know, that the cars and that noise represents people that I love. And so that’s. Yeah, I just, I just think you have that when you’re saying, you know, when someone’s driving by and those people praying on the sidewalk don’t know that one of those people that God, that God loves my, you know, was tight on stopping, but they decided not to stop. People are out there praying. Yeah, God loves every single person. Yes represented by that sort of awkward, not attractive highway noise.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Yeah, it’s so true.
Jacob Barr :
All right well, so the next question, well, I guess we sort of answered the next one I was going to ask you guys about was the God fingerprint question. So I might, I might go ahead and roll into the next one, which is how might you encourage those who are serving women and Ben men facing an unexpected pregnancy what would you How might you counsel someone if they were to be in your counseling room and facing that scenario? So, Pastor Eric, how would you like? You like you like to go first?
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Sir, I mean, i think you’re giving me. I mean, considering that i mean, you know many of the stories of the village already. Jake, i think I don’t necessarily get the single walked into my office. I don’t know you because that’s not how our church works. But I think the thing that the village has done, and we do it collectively instead of individually, is as people come into our community and are in troubled spaces, our community mobilizes so you know when you were talking to me about this interview I was in the process of talking about to a mother about when she had her baby was she going to live in my house you know where is the baby going to live. We were trying to figure that all out. I really don’t because people in our church are watching this. I think I’ll just leave it simply at we really believe that all that it takes a village to raise a child right and all children that God brings into our purview, both unborn and born, are our responsibility, not just the parents and so we fight for their life and we fight for their continued development and so I would, if I were in those kinds of conversations with someone in my office or somebody in my living room, that’s really this is what God is inviting you into and this is what God’s community is willing to do to help you get there and this is our responsibility too so you know and I take that from the early church who spent their life, you know, wandering in the woods, getting babies, rescuing babies, fighting for life that’s why the early church grew so quickly is that they changed the what life meant. Jesus changed it. Like pre Jesus life was nothing. I think outside of the Jewish community life had no value historically you just look at the way governments and societies were built and then Jesus comes and dies and tells us our life is valuable and we have to fight for people’s lives because Jesus loves them and so, you know, I just take that seriously so that’s where I’d be my life, My home is not my stuff like it’s yours so how do I help you and care for you so?
Jacob Barr :
That’s beautiful.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
How?
Jacob Barr :
About your father, Frank, what are your thoughts on counseling and helping someone facing an unplanned pregnancy?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Yes you know, just like Pastor Eric is saying it’s like the words that summarize the gospel God is saying to his people, I am with you, I am with you, and therefore we are with you. We the body of Christ. So to assure somebody who’s thinking about abortion that they are not alone is a key part of the message and that no abortion is necessary. It’s not necessary neither for health reasons nor for social reasons. You know, one of the perspectives that helps people in these in these fearful moments is you don’t think you’re not always going to feel the way you feel right now. You might feel terrible right now or I’ll equipped right now to handle this child because you don’t have the support of the father that’s a common scenario where you don’t have the support.
Pastor Eric Cepin :
Maybe of your own?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Parents or you don’t have the finances. These are all circumstances that can change. These people can change. Other people can step up to the plate and help in fact, we’re telling them there are people ready to step up and help. So all these things can change. Here’s what cannot change. If you have this baby killed, there’s no way to undo that. You’ll never get that child back. No matter how deeply you feel you made a mistake. It cannot be reversed. And so think carefully about what can change and what cannot change. The other thing we have to help them understand is it’s just some of the basic facts. You know, we can ask them questions like, has anybody told you know, how well developed your baby already is? Because a lot of them are coming in with this notion that of course, the other side wants to indoctrinate everyone with that oh, well, you know, just the compass cells. No actually, it’s not. This baby already has a beating heart, arms and legs and you know it’s only seven weeks into the pregnancy does a child have all the organ systems and thousands of body parts that we have as adults and like people don’t even, don’t even have an understanding of that of course it goes back to the soul that we started with we you know we in our modern science now an Embryology and what we know about the unborn child. We know better than anyone in history has ever known the meaning of these words. You I am fearfully and wonderfully made you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I mean the knitting together and the wonder of it are more known to us today in 2022 than ever in human history. So the development of this child do they know have they seen the pictures, the videos of the developing child. We’ve got some fascinating and I always try to show this to. You know, moms, if I’ve, if they’re, if they’re in this situation, we’ve got fascinating footage and not ultrasound we know ultrasound is very powerful, but I’m talking about direct video imaging of the unborn child people can see it at unborn. Dot info. You can see that little heart beating five weeks into the pregnancy you could see it and you see all kinds of other beautiful, stunning footage. And then finally, you know, the third part of this is what’s going to happen to you if you have that abortion. We know because of so many who have been through it and share their stories. We have a project at Priests for Life and we collaborate with Anglicans for Life on this. It’s called the Silent No More campaign and I’m sure many listening have heard of it. It’s Moms, dads, grandparents who have lost children to abortion or grandchildren, speaking out, speaking out about the what the experience was like for them and if people would listen to these testimonies. That can be a big factor in counseling someone you know. Others have gone down this road before you. If you want to go down this road, please be aware of what you’re likely to experience. The grief, the intense devastation, devastation of relationships, devastation of one’s own fertility, physical as well as psychological and spiritual consequences. The testimonies of those in the Silent No More campaign are very important tools and people can check that out at silentnomore.com And look at the testimonies, listen, watch them. And that can help counsel and dissuade many from making this terrible mistake.
Jacob Barr :
Running a.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Pregnancy center can sometimes feel like a.
Jacob Barr :
Whirlwind, but you shouldn’t feel.