The ProLife Team Podcast 160 | Jim Sprague and Fr. Frank Pavone

Jacob Barr

So welcome to the Pro Life Team Podcast. I’m excited to have you, Jim, and father Frank. So before we dive into your story, Jim, father Frank, would you open this podcast in a prayer?

Fr. Frank Pavone

Gladly. Okay, brothers and sisters. Good to be with you all. Let’s pray together. Father of life, we glorify you. We praise you because without us doing or wanting anything or even being able to, you called us out of nothingness and into life. We praise you for that, and we praise you for the opportunity we have each and every day to speak up for life, to save life, to replace despair with hope, to lead others off of the path to abortion, and to indeed build a culture of life, all through your grace, all inspired by your word, all made possible through your holy spirit, who is the spirit of life, the spirit of truth.

Lord god, we pray today against the the lies of the evil one. Your son told us that the devil is both a liar and a murderer. And where do we see those two aspects of his work more clearly than in the abortion industry? Lord god, free us from the lies and enable us to free others from the lies that would paint abortion as something good or something useful or something that would solve a problem. Lord god, help us to show through word, through testimony, through loving action that indeed this is an evil that causes even more problems, more destruction. Lord god, enable us to activate the churches. Enable us to continue to build the body of Christ in such a way that this becomes the first haven, that this becomes the first place of first resort for people who are torn and confused and weak and and and not sure, lord god, what path they need to take.

May, through our obedience to you and through our faithful work, may indeed more and more of our brothers and sisters find in the church the life saving support that they need. Bless us now during this discussion. May it encourage many, and may it reconfirm us in this great cause. We pray through Christ our lord. Amen.

Jim Sprague

Amen. Amen. So good. So good.

Father Frank, I feel like I would love to have just stayed right there with you at the throne of grace having you lead us. Thank you

Fr. Frank Pavone

so much. Hallelujah. Well, you are someone who has responded to that grace. Tell our audience if they’re not familiar. Of course, you’re based in Michigan. I am. And, you you, you head up a pregnancy, resource center.

Tell tell us about what your work is and how you got involved in it.

Jim Sprague

Oh, yeah. So, receiving that grace, let me let me start there. I was 13 years old, and it was 1973. Does that does that date ring a bell at all? That was a day that I, committed my life to Christ and said, not mine, but yours. And, of course, that year does ring a bell for us in the the the pro life movement. So I just I just find that an interesting parallel, that I surrendered my life to live it for the Lord, the same year that our our supreme court, enacted Roe and DOE.

And, so fast forward several years in 1985, I get married, to a wonderful woman. Jody is her name. We were attending as an engaged couple, a church, just north of Grand Rapids, and they were talking about the abortion, issue in Grand Rapids. Today, Grand Rapids, Michigan is is, the moniker that the Chamber of Commerce is promoting is beer city. But back in 1985, it was known as the city of churches. More churches per capita, church on pretty much every street corner, very, very much a religious, community. But there were those in our church who were saying, then why are we the host for the regional abortion provider?

What is the church doing? And so even as an engaged couple during 1984 or so, and we, were looking forward to getting married, we were watching this church that we were attending launch a pregnancy resource center. And as I understand it, this has been handed down to me. I don’t have this firsthand, but my predecessor, you guys know Kurt Dillinger, Life International. So, you know, I I came in after Kurt when he started Life International. But one of the things he shared with me, was that, pregnancy resource center, we were the first organization to actually register that as a name. And, one day, Jim Dodson, doing his radio program, had called Kurt and said, you know, that really rings true and accurate to what these centers are doing.

Is it okay if we, you know, start calling it, you know, PRCs and pregnancy resource centers? So that name sort of, was how we were founded, that we wanted to be a resource, to this community. So in 1985, Jody and I get married, and the same church gives birth, if you will, to the Pregnancy Resource Center at Grand Rapids because there were women who were standing on the, on the street. So this organization was really born off of sidewalk counseling. Right? So these women are standing there and trying to engage men and women going in or coming out of that facility and trying to offer them hope and grace. Right next door to that planned parenthood was a law firm, and, one of the women, Mary Kay, knocked on the door one day and asked, could we get a private place sort of off the street, out of the elements, and to to just have a a private conversation with with, women that might wanna step inside and and do that.

And so they were having life giving conversations, in just a little corner of the building right next door to planned parenthood. Well, one thing led to another when the organization was formed, moved into the building, occupied the the top level and then grew and then occupied the lower level and, ended up buying the building. Now my wife, the reason I’ve mentioned her is she, back in 1985, was very moved to be involved with this new organization as were many folks in the congregation we were attending. And so she was in the very first class of volunteers who were trained to meet with women at the PRC of of Grand Rapids. She stayed there for many, many years, was on the board of directors when Kurt then was called to launch Life International, and they started interviewing for a new director. I put my name in the hat. She said, I’ll step off the board because I’ve been doing it.

I think she had been doing it 8 or 10 years or something at that point. And, that’s when I began, as the executive director. It was 2,001. So April of that year, I stepped into the role of being being a leader here at this local ministry.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Over 2 decades. Wow.

Jim Sprague

I’m in my 24th year. You know, you I thought I might do it for a couple years. You know? I have a That’s right.

Fr. Frank Pavone

So often the story, you know, with pro life, pro life activist, pro life leaders, oh, I’ll do this for a little while. You know? And then 30 years later, they’re still talking about the story.

Jim Sprague

I know. I know. God has not released me.

Fr. Frank Pavone

No. That’s right.

Well, the the beginnings you know, we often see the the the the whole vision of a of a work and a ministry like you’re doing by looking at some of the elements at its very beginning. And and as you started telling the story, you were talking about the involvement of the church congregation because your approach and your your work with I mean, it’s not only about providing resources for people who are pregnant, don’t know what to do. They might be tempted to abortion. In your vision and in your work, it’s deeply integrated with the church, the body of Christ. Tell us about your vision there and how how how that’s supposed to work in god’s plan, both for the prevention of these situations that are so horrific and for the actual help that we can give in those situations.

Jim Sprague

Yeah. I’d love to.

It was a number of years ago now, probably 10 or more years, that, I went to our development team here, and I said, you know what? We have to stop treating the church as though they are an ATM, as though that is a source, to support what we’re doing. We have got this flipped, and we turned it around. And we said, look. We need to be a resource to the church. And I think it was about the time that CareNet and Lifeway came out with that study. I think it was 2015. Right? And they had surveyed women who received abortions that year, and they discovered that 40% of them were from, solid church families. Right? They were attending church 2 or more Sundays in the last 4 weeks sort of a thing.

And these are women or family members who, knew that, and and hopefully were taught somewhere in their church training that life is sacred, but yet, they were still having abortion. Yeah. And, so we began to look at establishing 3 pillars under everything that we do at PRC Grand Rapids, and they are this. The first one is is the first one because it’s the number one, of value for us is we now exist. Everything that we do has to come under existing to serve the bride of Christ. So all of our programming, all of our fundraising, all of our community, engagement has to be around the fact that the church is still God’s plan to reach the lost. We are not a replacement for the church. Right? We are to come alongside in the true definition of being a para church organization to assist the church, to reach the lost.

But so that’s where the power is. Because I’ve often said, Jesus didn’t take on human flesh. The vulnerability of being born, in a human womb, right, and live a sinless life, go to the cross on our behalf, hell and death, ascend to the, heavens, and and send the holy spirit to empower pregnancy centers. We’re not the answer. The church is the answer. And he will return not for pregnancy centers, but for a bride with a spotless and wrinkleless gown. And there’s a huge gown.

This is the other, or stain on the gown. That’s the other reason the number one pillar is serve the bride because we know this statistic of what’s going on inside the church. So we came to the realization that the answer to defunding the abortion industry wasn’t gonna come out of Washington or Lansing, Michigan, our state capital, through the legislation and through the through the laws. It was gonna come through the local church because there is no business out there that could, sustain a 40 to other studies have shown a 60%, number of women who have had abortions are coming from churches. No industry can support a loss of 40 to 60 percent of their revenue stream. And the other thing that sealed us, on this decision was a conversation with the actual abortion doctor here in Grand Rapids.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Mhmm.

Jim Sprague

And there were sidewalk counselors who you get about a 27 second window of opportunity to engage with him from the car to the door, and they were there every morning. And one dear saint, her name is Mary, she asked him because her heart was for him Yeah.

To come to know Christ. Not that he would stop doing abortions. That was never our prayer, that he would yield his knee to the Lord, and we knew abortions would you know, God would take care of that part. But we checked through his heart and his soul. And Mary, in that, context said, doctor Gordon, would you ever consider coming to church with me? And he stopped. And he turned around and he looked at Mary and he said, I’d consider coming to church with you, Mary, when your church stops coming to me.

And when she told me that story, that’s when I realized I need to go to the team and stop saying, hey, churches. Can you give us money? You know, could you take an offering, or could we speak, or could you, you know, do a sanctity of human life message? Those things will take care of themselves. But how do we help and equip the church to be a resource to them? So we started looking at this idea of PRC. I I mentioned you know, I went into where PRC came from, but it’s also become how we look at what we do.

We are proactive. That’s the p. We are responsive, and we are compassionate. So we have programs that are proactive. We have an education program that is in the final stages of becoming evidence based. It’s it’s, very well done and documented, and we are seeing over 15,000 students a year, nationwide with this curriculum. That’s true. Right? So how many crisis pregnancy there for how many abortions didn’t happen because of prevention?

Only god knows. Yeah. But then the responsive piece, that’s our medical program. I just today got an email from my medical director and said, we’ve done it. We finally we’ve eclipsed 200 lives saved this year alone, and we will probably we’re on pace to to eclipse 300 lives in a single year, life decisions at our center because of our responsive medical care. And then compassionate support. You have to come alongside women who’ve had abortions, who’ve chosen life.

And we have a a cradles of grace program similar to, Embrace Grace, which is a church based program. And so, you know, I talked to one pastor who said, you know, we did the numbers. We have over 100 women in, a 10 mile radius of our church who are single moms, and we’re reaching out to them. And with the cradles of grace program, we’re bringing them to our church, and we’re supporting them. So what we have begun to do is to find church partnership, not by how much money they give the PRC. We become, becoming, coming to the place of saying, let’s define church partnership with how many, points in this thread are they able to pull through the ministries and talk about being proactive in this congregation, being responsive in this congregation, and being compassionate. So do they talk about it in youth group?

Does it come up in couples counseling? I mean, when you’re doing, you know, marriage counseling for a couple that’s coming together, do we even go, look. Is is there an abortion in anybody’s past? Right. Because there’s there’s a need to talk about that. And if he doesn’t know that and she’s post abortive and she doesn’t know that and he paid for an abortion, you know, years ago with somebody else, that’s gonna come up. And, you know, like, so does that happen?

How are we being proactive? And then how are we retraining the young people? Right? How are you preparing then for an unplanned pregnancy that statistically is on its way to your youth group? Right? And so how do we think in those terms? Pull it through youth group.

Pull that thread through men’s bible study as well and Sunday morning teaching. Yeah. And then, you know, how are we how can we respond? We didn’t want you in this situation, but we’re we’re there to support you and then compassionately come around you. So we started, looking at PRC as not, just a a resource to the community, but first and foremost to the church. And that was pillar 1. Yeah. Well, you know 2.

Fr. Frank Pavone

This is something that, resonates so well with with with me because it’s so much the vision that the lord inspired in me when we started priests for life. I said to our team, it’s not that we want to establish an alternate structure. We want to infuse the existing structures of the church and the programs and the activities and the ministries, just like you were just describing, with a deeper awareness of pro life, with a deeper responsiveness to the whole abortion problem because the structures exist. The people are coming to the church Yes.

Every day Yeah. And every Sunday.

And it’s amazing the structure when you think about it of of of communication and interaction that exists in the let’s just speaking broadly, the Christian church in America. It’s unbelievable. I mean, there’s nothing there’s nothing like it.

Jim Sprague

Yeah.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Yet for the and it seems to me that what you’re describing right now is it requires a a change of of of mindset on both sides of the equation in the in the pregnancy center movement and within the churches that they look at each other and say, wait a minute. You you are part of me, and I am part of you. And that’s the way the Lord wants it to be.

Jim Sprague

So good.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Because it’s the people of God serving life. Right?

Jim Sprague

So good.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Life Yeah. Serving life.

Jim Sprague

Yeah. And and the the change in in the the paradigm is we’re not coming to the church with our arms empty. We’re coming to the church with our arms full and saying we can resource you. We are first a a pregnancy resource center to you Right. In the local congregation. And we stopped defining it and and letting them, frankly, as a church, get off the hook by saying, yeah. We send a check once a year, you know, to PRC.

We’re pro life.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Mhmm.

Jim Sprague

Mhmm. Yeah. There’s so much more, right, to to being to being pro life.

Fr. Frank Pavone

That’s that’s too external. It’s it’s it’s like I mean, look. A church can can can can partner with a local, with the with the with the fire department. Hey. We want you guys to come in and train our parishioners how what’s the best way to protect a fire. You know? I mean, that’s a that’s kind of a partnership, and that’s a that’s a good connection in the community.

But when it comes to this saving life, I mean, the the the as you say, the church is the bride of Christ. And and what happens in a marriage? What you’re you’re you’re you’re giving yourself unconditionally to your spouse, and you’re open to children.

You’re giving life. You’re nurturing life.

So the church is a bride and a mother. Right? And that and that life giving call of the church is simply finding its expression here in the in

Jim Sprague

the,

Fr. Frank Pavone

in the pregnancy center work. You know, you must have an an an endless amount of of of stories. And I know on this podcast, Jacob likes to to to give an insight into some of these, you know, these manifestations of God, that are in just just memorable stories that happen as you’re serving the body of Christ. Tell us some of those that stick out in your memory.

Jim Sprague

So can I tell you too? Because, I I know, Jacob, one of the things that you said was was tell more of my story, and and I love to do that because it is a very pro life story. I started out talking about, you know, coming to Christ in 73, coming to the PRC in 2001. But my wife and I were infertile for 9 years. And we wanted to start a family, and and we went back and forth on the whole adoption thing and back and forth. And either she was for it and I wasn’t or vice versa. We finally came together on that and, decided to put our hat in the ring for adoption.

And, you guys, we ended up very miraculously. I won’t go into all the details. It was it’s quite an incredible story how we adopted our first job. All 3 of our kids, came to us through, incredible means, incredible god stories. But the first one had such a huge impact on us because it was the first one. And, so our son Jacob was was born to a 16 year old girl, who got pregnant. And so I have permission to tell this.

So if people right away are like, okay. Does she know this?

And, like, she does. The birth mom, we’re we’re still in touch with. Jacob knows this this story, and he’s okay with me telling it. But his birth mom was 16, and she got pregnant in the back seat of her car in, the church parking lot after youth group. First time either one of them, you know, they were experimenting. You know, they they end up having sex for the first time, both of them. Boom. She’s pregnant. Right? She doesn’t tell anybody.

She doesn’t tell her mom. She doesn’t tell the boyfriend. She doesn’t tell her best girlfriend. She She doesn’t tell the coach when she quits the volleyball team that year because she thought diving around on a floor, you know, for a volleyball probably wasn’t a great idea. And her parents took her to the ER, thinking her appendix had had ruptured because she was in such pain, and they came out and said, oh, no. She’s actually in labor. So she hid this pregnancy, obviously, very well. And, we were able to adopt Jacob.

He was born on Saint Patrick’s Day, March, 17th, and we brought him home on 20th. And so he has, been an incredible blessing to us. And, as have Madison and Kevin, our other 2 kids. Madison was born in, January of 2000, then Kevin came along in December of 2002. Both of them born to the same mom. And I what’s not lost on me is that these birth moms, given their circumstances, could have, and some would argue in our culture should have, had abortions. But those are my children that were born to these birth moms, and God’s plan for us in getting us on the path to to be part of a pregnancy center movement is I understand.

And then to just just double down on the path that we have walked as a family. It’s been almost it’s been just over 4 years ago now that our son, Jacob, came to the house, and he said, mom and dad, he sat us down. I have to tell you something, and we’re thinking, okay. This can’t be great. You probably know where this is going. He says, you know, my new girlfriend I I said, yeah. We haven’t met her yet.

What what’s her name? You know? And so he reminds me of her name.

He’s, well, she’s she’s pregnancy. And she knows the story too, and she obviously, she knows the story, but she knows I tell this story and, is completely fine with it. But then he looked at us, and he said, she’s pregnancy, and, dad, I don’t know what she might do. So can I bring her to the PRC tomorrow? She needs an ultrasound. She needs to see this baby. So I’m telling you, it’s surreal, to meet the young woman who is carrying your grandchild in the reception lobby area of the pregnancy center that you’re a part of and then watch your team take her back and serve her and serve now now you’re a family being served. Right. And it’s incredible.

So, as we head out to CareNet, here in a couple weeks, mom and granddaughter live just outside of Denver, and my wife is coming along, and we’re gonna see our granddaughter. She turns 4, next month in just a couple of weeks. And that has just been an incredible journey of life, to watch how God has grown our family. So it’s real personal to us. Yeah. Because as I said, these birth moms, could have had abortions, and we never would have known, our children.

Fr. Frank Pavone

It’s incredible. Right?

Jim Sprague

God is Yeah. I praise God. Just what he

Fr. Frank Pavone

does and what he show shows his power, shows his love in these stories. It’s amazing. Yep. You know, so many of the pregnancy, center, personnel and and volunteers and staff and directors who would be watching, our podcast today, have tried for years, decades in some cases, to foster relations with the churches. Much of what we’re saying today would be familiar to them, some of it perhaps a new perspective. But what have there been, more recently some new insights that you’ve you’ve you’ve gained that you would pass along to people or some new developments that maybe even those who’ve been working in this movement for a long time and interacting with the churches with greater or less success might be, might be

Jim Sprague

helped by Yeah.

Fr. Frank Pavone

So, did you wanna hear my other story too?

Jim Sprague

My my previous other story? That’s alright. Should I do that first? Sure. Because I did wanna tell this story as an encouragement to pregnancy center workers, and then then, we could talk about, then I’ll answer your question about, church and, maybe a new approach. But, one story I wanted to share, happened recently in our center where, a patient came to us, and that’s always incredible to me. I mean, that, that’s sort of like Paul in his letter saying, you know, grace and peace to you.

You know, we kinda skip over that, but wait a minute. Grace and peace has come to us through the Lord Jesus Christ. A woman came to us. We need to pause and go, that’s incredible. That’s only of the Lord because we are not selling anything that she’s in the market to buy. So for her to come to us in the first place is always a a miracle to me. So this woman came to us, and she needed our services.

We did everything we could, you know, a cut to the chase. She left saying you’ve been great, but I’m gonna go ahead with my my abortion, appointment. We follow-up with her. She ended up blocking our number. She didn’t wanna talk to us anymore. We continue to pray for her. Fast forward, another 5, 6 months, she calls us back.

She’s pregnant again. Now the reason I’m telling this story, and I wanted to come back to it is I I wanted to be an encouragement to all of us in the pregnancy center work that how you do what you do matters so much. And it flies in the face of the rhetoric of the of the pro abortion camp that says these pregnancy centers just judge their Christian bible thumping, and they’re gonna make you feel guilty and blah blah blah. I wouldn’t go back to a gas station. Right? That said, you know, what are you doing back here, Jim? You’d sure, you know, got a gas guzzler.

Don’t you know? Like, if I was berated in any transaction, why would I go back? Right. If I was treated poorly. So she had her abortion, and she came back to us because she suspected she was pregnant again. And guess what? She was.

So you don’t go back to the place that judged you. You go back to the place that loved you. We did an ultrasound, and we discovered that she was pregnant with twins. Wow. And with tears going down her cheeks, she says, well, I’m gonna keep these. God has given me my makeup baby from the abortion that you guys tried to help me to avoid the first time.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Yeah. Look at that.

Jim Sprague

You know? And I I wanted to share that story because it’s so incredible, number 1. It was such a god thing that she even came to us and that she came back, but I wanna encourage people who do this work And, and I want them to use that type of a story in in the face of that message that they get that, oh, you work for for one of those judgmental place. You know? No. We don’t. We know because we’re on the inside how much love and grace goes into every conversation with our patients.

But that is evidence.

Fr. Frank Pavone

I’m sure you found, as I’m sure many of our listeners have found too, aside from the the the unique aspects of that story, twins in general often save each other. But but because because it’s it’s isn’t it isn’t it interesting how, you know, as we counsel people who are tempted to have abortions, if they find out that they have twins, that is so often the turning point, isn’t it? Oh, I can’t can’t abort. Oh, yeah. I can have an abortion. I can’t abort twins. It’s an interesting dynamic there.

Jim Sprague

I heard a woman, one time. You’re right about that. It it does seem to be a repeating, occurrence. But I’ll I’ll always remember one woman saying, well, you know, I was gonna have an abortion, but I can’t abort a family. Yeah.

Fr. Frank Pavone

It’s fascinating.

Jim Sprague

Yeah. It really it really Well, I wanna get back to your question about the church, because I what happened for me was about 6 months ago, the pastor in my church, stopped me after service. It might even been during the service, but he said, Jim, have you heard or read the House of Refuge statement? And I said, no. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

He’s like, oh, I’ll send it to you. And then we both kinda forgot about it. Well, it’s come up again. Are you are you guys familiar with what they’re doing, the house of refuge? Okay. So this this maybe is something for people to look into. I, was reminded of it again, and so I went to their website and I printed out this prayer. No. It’s not a prayer.

It’s it’s it’s a it’s a statement. Mhmm. And it’s a statement that is so moving about how we in this congregation so imagine it read by the priest or the pastor and saying, things like I should have printed it out so I have it in front of me, but, saying things like, the baby in your womb is not a sin. Right? It’s not punishment. And God is not mad at you. He’s creating a life in you.

What we will not do in this church is we will not judge you. What we will do in this church is we will come around you. You know?

And I have a video of a pastor. So I’ve read that statement, and I’m I’m getting teary eyed, you know, reading this and just imagining this happening in my congregate in my church where it’s being read to the congregation. And so I sent it around to a bunch of pastors that I have relationships with. And 1 guy, picked it up and, responded. And he said, I’m gonna read it this Sunday, and I was like, that’s awesome. And he sent me the video of him reading it. Mhmm. And now I really am tearing up as I’m watching him in front of his congregation on Sunday morning step up and say, hey.

Before we get started, this is a statement I wanna share with you because we are a sanctity of Human Life Church, and, you’ll probably hear this more than once, a year. We’ll probably do this 2 or 3 times a year just to remind you where we at where we are as a church. He read through this statement. And, again, I’m I’m just like, I can’t this is so I just may your tribe increase. May may pastors really catch a vision for this. And then what was really cool is at the end of the reading, he gets done and goes, well, amen, and everybody just applauded. The place just burst into, approval for this.

And he told me afterwards that the emails and the phone calls, the comments, even, that day after service, people were so positive about it. But he was able to say, we are the evidence of this is that this coming Saturday, we’re having a shower for our embrace grace graduates. We’ve got 2 girls that are graduating, and we’re gonna throw them a shower. So go out in the foyer and sign up for all the things that we still need because we’re gonna bless these moms, and we’re gonna come around them with with the big c, the compassionate support Right. Service that they needed. And I said to myself, that is what we need more of, to embrace it. Now, this is a church that they also happen to support us financially, but when I see that sort of thread being pulled through, all that’s going on in the church, I go yes and amen.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Yeah. Amen to that. The the the the the vision here too, that are there other aspects of the vision, that you’re implementing that you wanted to add to what you already said?

Jim Sprague

Well, for the church specifically? Mhmm.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Well, for the overall vision of Pregnancy Research Center, you laid out the pillars before. Yeah. And, and and I think there’s even more to that you Yeah. Developed over the years. Well, I

Jim Sprague

do have this.

Jacob Barr

Yeah. Hey, Jim.

Jim, what if I read I found the house of refuge statement. I can go ahead and read it. This is so that yeah.

Jim Sprague

Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. And then I’ll come back to, the pillars and and, something else.

Jacob Barr

Okay. So I found it on a church called Joy Church. So it reads off Joy Church is a house of refuge. This applies to everyone in this church or people you know that need a place of refuge.

Here’s what we believe. If you find yourself in an unplanned pregnancy, please know that being pregnant is not a sin, and the child you carry is not a punishment. It is a blessing. God is knitting the this child in your womb. You may have made a sinful decision that led to this pregnancy, but we want you to know you are loved, and we will do whatever it takes to help you carry and carrier care for this precious child before and after birth. While we can never support or encourage a woman to have an abortion because the child you you carry is made in the image of God and is intrinsically valuable and loved by God, it is important for you to know how we will respond. Here’s what we won’t do.

This church family will not gossip about you, shame you, or abandon you. This is a house of refuge, and we will not allow for the family of God to harm one another with words or actions contrary to the love of God as revealed in his word, here’s what we will do. We will do everything in our power to remove whatever obstacles stand in the way of you having this child. There are people on this church ready to mentor you, throw you a baby shower, and connect you with resources inside and outside of our church, local pregnancy care centers, for example. We will also hold men accountable for living out their calling to provide and protect women and children. Finally, if you have ever had an abortion in your past, we want you to know that abortion is not an unforgivable sin. Whoever confesses and forsakes their sin finds mercy.

If you have never gone through a post abortion bible study, we will be happy to connect you to one so that you can walk in complete healing and freedom.

Fr. Frank Pavone

It’s awesome.

Jim Sprague

That’s beautiful.

Fr. Frank Pavone

It is. It really is.

You know, in in listening to that statement and listening, Jim, to how you’re explaining, all this ministry that you do and your team, I’m struck by by the fact that if we wanted to summarize for people what the message of the church is to a culture immersed in abortion and to all the people in whatever circumstances they find themselves, And the message really of the pro life movement and of the pregnancy center movement to our wider society, it’s really summed up in 4 words from the gospel. I am with you. Right? When you think about that because so much abortion happens because of isolation, as we all know, as we minister to these these moms, these

Jim Sprague

dads, families.

Fr. Frank Pavone

I am with you. Jesus is saying that. I’m with you till the end of time. He says that at the end of Matthew’s gospel, And it said at the beginning of Matthew’s gospel, his name shall be called Emmanuel. Emmanuel. God is with us. So if he’s with us, then we’re saying to those who are pregnant and in need, listen.

We’re with you. We’re not condemning you. We’re gonna help you. We’re saying to those who’ve had an abortion, we’re not condemning or rejecting you. We’re gonna help you. And we’re saying to that baby, I am with you. And we’re saying to the world, hey, listen.

God says he’s with us, and that means we’re with you too.

Jim Sprague

And I I

Fr. Frank Pavone

think that’s it. Those four words just sum it all up, and they sum up that beautiful statement as well.

Jim Sprague

I love that. I love that. Well and and you have to you have to align that with our abortion doctor’s statement that that he is, he is getting paid to hold the secrets of those who go to church who haven’t, who haven’t, embraced the fact that he is with them even in this unplanned situation.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Right.

Jim Sprague

Because, you know, the embarrassment of being a good, you know, Christian family, and having a teenager or having, you know, someone in your family, I know of pastors in our community who have supported and encouraged, women or, nieces or daughters to have abortions because you can’t you know? And then, you know, we have some, seminaries, here in Grand Rapids and and one couple from a seminary. You know? We’re pregnant. We we had an abortion. When is this pain gonna go away? We had to have this abortion because I’m gonna be in in youth ministry.

And, you know, I I felt like it would just derail my whole, you know, ministry opportunity if we were pregnant out of wedlock. So we had to have an abortion. You know, we’re we’re missing it. You know? And I am with you has to be true for us first. Right? Otherwise, we’re just paying abortion doctors to keep the secrets for the church.

And that’s twisted.

Fr. Frank Pavone

It’s twisted.

Jim Sprague

It’s twisted.

Fr. Frank Pavone

You know, so much of what you said, also and I wanted just for you to elaborate on this a little bit, advice maybe to pastors and and and even to parents. You know, the Christian churches often find themselves walking this tightrope. They don’t want to encourage abortion. They want, my associate Janet Morana here at Preach For Life always says, you know, don’t talk about unexpected pregnancy. It’s an unexpected blessing. You know? And and we want them to see it in that way. Yeah. And at the same time, we don’t want to encourage, sexual activity outside of marriage and Right.

And things that might lead to the you know? Give us some advice about how, you know, to keep that balance.

Jim Sprague

Yeah. Well, that’s that’s for us. We’ve embraced, the p in PRC is proactive education. So we’ve got a curriculum called willing to wait. And like I said, we’ll see 15,000 students a year in that, but we also did the Christian, version of that where you could take the gloves off and talk about God’s plan for sex and relationships biblically, and we bring that into the church. It’s called the whole sex talk. And so that’s a curriculum that we develop for parents, you know, to start to have these conversations.

I had one guy say to me, if you wait till 8, you’re too late. You know? If you haven’t been talking about sex and relationships, the other side is already getting their hooks, in in your young person. And so, but I think a lot of it is our Christian parents are like, I don’t know what to do. Well, how I don’t know what to say. Maybe, we weren’t sexually pure when we got married, so who am I to say? Or, you know, whatever.

But what we’re trying to do with that curriculum is equip mom and dad to not just have a sex talk, but to have ongoing conversations about sex and relationships from a biblical perspective. Yeah. And and so it’s a you know, one example that comes to mind, there’s a there’s a video that’s an interview of a woman who has same sex attraction. And she happens to be a preacher’s kid, and she’s sitting in the congregation Sunday after Sunday. And every once in a while, she’s hearing this message, about how God does not, favor, same sex attraction, same sex relationships. And she’s like, I know, but what do I do with this? Right? And so she kinda walks through as a believer how she, came to grips with that and realized that her identity is not in her label except that she’s a child of God.

And how many of us have tendencies or impulses or leanings that we have to have to say no to. You know, the scripture teaches us. Say no to ungodliness and worldly lust. Right? And and focus on your identity in Christ. And so what we have have realized is that we can start reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies and therefore the number of abortions if we can get upstream. It’s one thing to catch them going over Niagara Falls, but Yeah.

Who’s dropping them in upstream, and how is that happening? And if there’s a church right on the banks of that river, we ought to be able to, you know, get inside and and help those parents equip those young people so that when they step in, to the culture, it doesn’t sweep them away.

Fr. Frank Pavone

You know, Jim, you pointed this out already, but, again, just to expand on it a little bit. This whole journey that people make comes full circle in the sense that if someone is unfortunate enough to have an abortion, we know that that leads to terrible consequences, including more promiscuity and more of a temptation to have another abortion.

Jim Sprague

More abortion. Yeah.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Right? About half the abortions in America, maybe a little bit more, are repeat abortions. So and some people get locked in a spiral. I mean, I’ve ministered to to people who’ve had 25 abortions. Oh. And, I mean, it’s a spiral of self destructive despair. Right? So talk to us about how in your work, this happens where we reach out to heal those who have had an abortion.

And when you start talking about that, it’s not simply about after the fact. It then intersects in this in this circular way with the prevention. Because the sooner we can bring healing to that mom and to that dad, the more we’re preventing a a repeat abortion.

Jim Sprague

That’s exactly right. I’ve said for a long time that the way that we squeeze the abortion issue is the prevention side, but also giving a voice to those who have healed from their abortions and having them talk about it from the other side. Yeah. And and both of them saying, well, I don’t wanna be in that situation. Well, I don’t wanna be in that situation either. Right? So the it’s coming from both sides.

And, I think that’s how we have to approach it. Yeah. There’s a there’s a delayed effect. And, you know, we know the we know the data is that around 4 or 5 years after an abortion is when the, you know, the balloons, I think Pat Layton talks about, you know, under the water. You know, I can’t hold them underneath anymore, and and those things start, start bubbling up. And, and the other thing is, that’s that’s when because the clock is always running. Right? And and they know that’s when my child would be getting on that yellow bus here in the fall and going to school, and he or she is not.

And so those things, just because we bury them doesn’t make them biodegradable. Right? They Yeah. They don’t. They continue, to to fester. Yeah.

Fr. Frank Pavone

You know, Michigan is one of those places where, unfortunately, one of these ballot measures passed, making a so called right to abortion part of the constitution. Right? Mhmm. And, subsequently, led more pro abortion legislation has been passed. How has that affected your work being that you’re based in Michigan?

Jim Sprague

Yeah. So, I I think, I think what happened for us, and, I mean, those of us doing, pregnancy center work in the state, we have about 78 pregnancy centers in about a 100 locations. And we realized that we needed to circle the wagons, and I think it was Ben Franklin that said at the signing of the constitution looking around the room and said, gentlemen, if we don’t all hang together, we’re most assuredly gonna hang separately. And, we felt that way at the the signing of, if you will, the the prop 3, and we need to pull together. And so we created, a coalition. It’s called the Michigan Coalition For Pregnancy Wellness. And, we had an advantage in Michigan in that we divided the lower peninsula anyway into 3 regions, west, central, and east.

And so each of those three sections and and the 4th, if you count the upper peninsula as its own, region, each of those regions were sort of meeting collaboratively already, so it was really easy to come to a meeting and see about anywhere from 75 to 80% of the centers represented in that region and talk about the Michigan Coalition. Carolyn Doyle is the president of the Michigan Coalition For Pregnancy Wellness.

We call it MICO, m I c o, for short. And, I’ve had the privilege of working with her, and my board has said, Jim, yeah, let’s get on board, and help. And so I’m chairing her board and working very closely with her. And then another role that I serve there is, I’m the state director for my co. And so, what this, means is that these coalitions are establishing themselves in this, this new territory of the pro life work. We have for a long time, and I can say this with almost two and a half decades in it. We have for a long time been comfortable saying, you know, the legislative work is right to life’s job, and we have a very strong and robust and and, effective right to life, group in Michigan.

But the service arm is is where, you know, we’re gonna work. Those days are gone. That’s right. Those days are gone, and we have to come together. So with the coalition now, what I can do as state director of of my co is I can bring messaging and data and information to Lansing, our state capital, to the lawmakers. In fact, I’m working right now on setting up a meeting with the pro life caucus in Lansing and telling them where we’re at. So I don’t go as the director of 1 of the 78 centers.

I go and I bring a voice for all 78 centers Right. And it has a greater impact. And so then I can say, here’s my card, and if you have any concerns or questions about what’s going on in pregnancy centers, call me, and I’ll get you the information, and I’ll I’ll be your go to. So we have to, get comfortable occupying this middle ground now, this collaborative overlap between the legislative arm and the service arm because we need to know better what each, other are up to.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Well, because a a a two way street, you know, the pregnancy center movement, the the the marvelous work that you do and all of our other friends that we’ll be together with soon at the CareNet conference, The work they do, the witness they provide, the alternatives they offer, and the stories they have speak into the legislative and political world and shape, the views of these these these lawmakers. Vice versa, the pro abortion politicians have made no secret of how they want to persecute and ultimately close down the pregnancy centers.

Jim Sprague

You know?

Fr. Frank Pavone

People people might think, oh, well, yeah, they wanna keep abortion legal, but if we wanna help women have their babies, they’ll they wouldn’t have any objection to that. Oh, yes. They do.

Jim Sprague

Oh, they do. Right?

Fr. Frank Pavone

Every life that you and your team save is business taken away from the abortion industry.

Jim Sprague

Sure. I think I just shared with you.

We’re at 202 lives. You know, you multiply that out that out times the cost of the abortion, and that’s how much we took out of their coffers, when those when those, those women chose life. Yeah. In fact, I think the other thing that it allows us to do, since we are just, about 3 months out from the national election, right, I think it would be appropriate to to just share something that God had had just kinda laid on my heart and really convicted me of. Because, I realized I was putting my my faith in the outcome of of of a of an election. And, where this came to came to light was there’s there’s obviously, one party that is extremely and aggressively, unabashedly for abortion. I mean, we saw, like, what’s happening right now as we’re doing this recording in Chicago is planned parenthood is rolling up a truck and going, here you go.

And, you know, not so funny, but the Babylon Bee had a had an image of the the river the Chicago River being dyed red instead of green for Saint Patrick’s Day, red in honor of all the abortions happening now. And and, you’re like, that’s sadly ironic and, you know, like I say, not so funny. And and so, then you you start to look at what the other party is gonna represent and, like, what would happen, with this person in the White House? And I realized that, that, that camp hasn’t, come out with a strong statement. Right? So there’s been a lot of criticism. I’m sure, father Frank, you were you were part of trying to speak into that Republican party and saying, where is the pro life plank here? It’s gone. Right? There’s this big hole in the platform that that that people can walk.

Well, we have to get to an electable position and and all of this. And when I started realizing that, I had to take my disappointment to the lord, and he just softly reminded me, Jim, you were you weren’t ever counting on an answer coming out of Washington or or Lansing were you? It was always gonna be me. It was always gonna be the church. And, regardless of what happens, remember Proverbs 21:1, he holds the hearts of kings in the palm of his hand and directs them where he wants them to go just like a water course. So the fact that a river is flowing that direction is God’s design, and he works above it all. And I just wanna encourage people doing this work, particularly in this season.

If you’re getting super disappointed about, who am I gonna vote for and where’s our nation going, and I just go, you know, God’s got this, and he really does. I mean, it sounds trite to say that, but he really, really does.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Mhmm. Well, praise God. Praise God for what you are doing. And, Jacob, you always find good guests for this podcast. So, Jim’s stories are, so instructive and so inspiring. Thanks for setting all this

Jacob Barr

1. My pleasure.

So, Jim, I’ve got I wanna read Psalms 23 and then ask you to reflect on how God has prepared a table before you in the presence of your enemies. I’m gonna read Psalms 23, and I just want you to, like, think about how how god is, like, taking care of you in the midst of wolves, like, with wolves, you know, around the sheep perhaps. But so, yeah, Psalms 23 is the lord is my shepherd. I lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside quiet waters. He refreshes my soul.

He guides me along the right the right path for his namesake, which makes me think of Immanuel. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil. My cup overflows. Surely goodness surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

So how has God taken care of you in the midst of enemies?

Jim Sprague

Well, before the Dobbs decision was released a couple years ago, We felt as a board and the leadership at PRC very strongly that that the Lord was leading us to secure our building. If I could take you outside our building right now, you would see that we literally share a driveway with planned parenthood right next to us. So all of the abortions in West and Northern Michigan that are surgical are happening there. They dispense the chemical abortion, and there are, pro abortion advocates, and there are pro life advocates, sidewalk advocates for life and others who are on that sidewalk. And sometimes they interact, shall we say. And, on the other side of our building over here is a low income housing. It’s not a it’s not a great population of people.

There’s crime and there’s all kinds of stuff going on. And, we realized that we’re right in between this. Grand Rapids isn’t a huge city, but we are the 2nd largest in the state. And, we’ve got a lot of city type stuff happening right in and around our neighborhood, and, God has prepared us. So I think about even a year before the Dobbs decision came down, we were led and got it provided the the funding to put cameras all around our building. We secured. We got badge readers.

You know, you can’t just walk in our building anymore. And then, actually, the 3 m company has this really great, product that you can put over your glass, and it keeps it from being shatterproof. And so people can’t just smash it or shoot it out and walk through your glass and and come into your building. And we’ve had active shooter training and all of that. And so I I when you ask me how we’ve been prepared, we we have marveled at how we did all of that before the first pregnancy center got firebombed. And, you know, we came into the news a couple years ago. I think it was Jim Harvin in in, North, New York and, and our our friends out in Portland.

You know, and we had one here in Michigan on the on the east side of Michigan. And, thankfully, we haven’t had anything, here physical, but, he went before us. And the other thing that comes to mind is we were sharing earlier, father Frank, from Philippians chapter 2, where Paul says to the Philippians, I pray that you would shine like stars in the universe in the midst of a wicked and perverse generation. And I think the darker that night sky, he’s preparing us to be light. And that is our call. Regardless of the election outcomes, regard regardless of violence or threats or or, you know, whether abortion is legal or not. We always know there are gonna be women who are pregnant, don’t wanna be, and, you know, they are gonna seek to to find abortions, in, places where, it’s not legal. You know?

And, so, whether it’s legal or not, how do we be light in life? And, I think that’s our call.

Jacob Barr

Awesome.

Jim Sprague

Always has been. You know, John John Ensor always said, this isn’t new.

It’s just our turn. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. I love that. And you could go back to Exodus 1 and see the Hebrew midwives standing in the gap for the law and saying, we’re gonna rescue these babies that are condemned, at birth, and, we’re gonna rescue them. So, it’s just this generation’s term. Yeah. Awesome, Jim.

Jacob Barr

Well, Jim, will you, close out our podcast with a a prayer? And then, father Frank, would you go after him, perhaps? Sure.

Jim Sprague

Alright.

Jacob Barr

Thank you.

Jim Sprague

Well, Brad, I I thank you for the work that’s going on, in Michigan and around this country and around the world to stand in the gap for life. Jesus, you warned us that the enemy of the human soul, the human life comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and we see that full well in our culture. But I’m so grateful that your promise in that, in response to that truth is that you’ve come and that you’ve come to give us life and to give us life to the full. So, father, I pray blessing on every pregnancy center. Father, give them a renewed passion and energy and vision to do the work, to make you known, to rescue life both physically and eternally right where they are. And may we, as a nation, similar, to to Nehemiah’s call in rebuilding a disheveled, broken down, wall that left a city exposed and vulnerable. May you give us a vision for rebuilding the wall.

And, also, like was said of Nehemiah, people marvel at the work that got done and the speed of it and the excellence of it because they they knew that God was with them. So thank you that you are with us.

That is your promise. You are Emmanuel, and we rest in that as we do this work that you called us to, this hard work that you called us to, but that you’ve also equipped us for. So we stand on those promises in your son’s name.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Amen. Lord, we thank you for Jim and for his team, for his family, for his work, for all the lives that have been saved, the hearts that have been healed, the relationships that have been restored. And, lord god, only you know the numbers of abortions that have been prevented, through this proactive, Christ centered work. Lord god, we pray today in a special way with the awareness that we indeed are your bride. We indeed are the bride of Christ. And in that marvelous call that we live out every day, We ask you now to make us vessels of life, like never before, in our marriage relationship with our creator, our marriage relationship, oh god, with with you. May we be always ready to encourage life, foster life, bring life into the world.

And may all our work in this pro life effort be guided by that longing, be filled with that longing on which scripture itself concludes that the spirit and the bride say, come, and that those who hear their voices say, come. And, lord, we hear the response. We hear the response of the lord Jesus Christ. Yes. I am coming soon.

Jim Sprague

Yes.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Amen. Come, lord Jesus.

Come and and end this evil of abortion and come and place the despair with hope. Come, lord god, and show us the fullness of the victory of life. Amen. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Jim Sprague

Amen. Amen. Amen. Good. Good. Good. Good to be with you, gentlemen. Yeah. Likewise.

Jacob Barr

Come away. This day will price, come away. With the spirit powerful.