Anne O’Connor answers several questions for The Abortion Museum and this is the raw footage of our interview. This footage will assist us in creating a series of museum exhibits on the truth/history surrounding abortion.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Jacob Barr
Welcome to the Pro Life Team Podcast. My name is Jacob Barr. And in this episode, we’re sharing footage captured for the abortion museum.
Anne O’Connor
So I became pro life actually in law school. Before that, I always believed I would never have an abortion. So I believe there was a moral weight to abortion, but I wasn’t going to prevent other women. And in fact, 2 of my roommates in college had abortions that today grieved me very much that I didn’t step in and do something about it. But in law school, in constitutional law, we were studying Roe versus Wade. And I had just recently had a whole Christian, rebirth in my life where all these things were coming more alive. And in the decision itself, the justices say we do not need to determine when human life begins.
And you know, I’m a pretty much stupid 20 year old in law school not really knowing what she’s doing there. And I’m like, professor, wouldn’t that be the question they should answer? Like if human life begins at a certain point, that’s when rights attach to human life. And then this would be an easy case to decide. Maybe not easy to live with, maybe still messy, but still very clear and certain how it should be decided. And I was at a Jesuit law school, and I raised my hand and said that, and I had, like, 250 other students just jump down my throat for even asking that question. And that was a huge revelation to me, and it was from that point that I dedicated my life to trying to protect the unborn and advocating for them.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So so question 1, when does new human life begin?
Anne O’Connor
Well, it’s very clear. There was a an amicus brief filed in the Dobbs case by 450 biology biology ethicists from around the world that and they their testimony in this brief is it’s a 100% percent scientific fact that human life begins at conception. No debate about it. Even the pro abortion, scientists believe that. So that question is clear. If human life begins at conception, that’s when the rights attach to it. The right to life, the right to continue uninterrupted, to grow and prosper, etcetera.
Jacob Barr
Someone oh, I think that’s a clean lady walking by our door. She’s probably opened the door right next to us in, like, 10 seconds. What’s that?
Speaker 3
I’m gonna go.
Jacob Barr
Oh, if we could ask her to delay this yeah. Maybe have her work on the far side or different floor, that’d be super cool. I don’t know if that’d be an option. Do you have to reshoot that one or was that good?
I think it was good. I just know that, I heard a thump, but I’m pretty sure I can clean it up. Yeah. That was really good. That was really good. We’re just, like, thinking about like, every time someone opens the door, we’re, like, how’s that gonna impact the audio? Right. It’s funny because last night, we thought by doing it later, it would help us.
But But it was actually Oh.
Anne O’Connor
And the door shuts so loud.
Jacob Barr
Wow. To change.
Anne O’Connor
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacob Barr
This is actually a this is probably a good time to shoot 1.
Anne O’Connor
Mhmm.
Jacob Barr
What time do we have father Frank at 12:30? No. We’re gonna push him to 3 because Angie is going up 1. That’s right. Okay.
Speaker 4
Real good.
Jacob Barr
Yeah. Cool. Okay. Alright. Here we go. On the goal is that if you so when it comes to length, shorter is okay.
Anne O’Connor
Okay. Am I going too long?
Jacob Barr
No. That’s not really good. We’re just saying, like, if you if you think about, like, being succinct is perfectly fine.
Anne O’Connor
Okay.
Jacob Barr
What words do medical professionals typically use to describe whatever it is that’s inside the pregnant mother? What is it exactly that gets aborted?
Anne O’Connor
Yeah. I mean, from the pro life worldview. Right? The the world view that values human life. From the beginning, it’s it’s a a tiny baby growing, no matter what you call it. The abortionists and the pro abortionists call it lots of things. Products of conception, a blob of tissue, fetus, really trying to dehumanize that person.
Jacob Barr
Please question 3. Please share about some of the development milestones as that tiny wait. Am I asking you the wrong question?
Speaker 3
You’re asking the medical question. I am
Jacob Barr
so sorry. I’m asking you the medical questions. I’m supposed to ask I was like I apologize.
Anne O’Connor
I was able to answer, but
Jacob Barr
Yeah. So I I I I use him. Yeah.
Anne O’Connor
I’m like, he’s going off record. Here.
Jacob Barr
I went off record. Yes. I got my legal questions here.
Have you been reading
Speaker 3
have you been prepping with the medical questions or the legal questions?
Anne O’Connor
Med legal.
Jacob Barr
Yes. I am so sorry. Well
Speaker 3
We are professional. We we told them that
Anne O’Connor
I know you are.
Jacob Barr
Medical. These aren’t the medical these are medical, not I mean, I don’t know. Yeah. I was looking at the medical questions.
Anne O’Connor
I can fake it.
Speaker 3
Well, bet better to catch it early than Yeah.
Jacob Barr
Yeah. Stop it early. No. Just That’s fine. Alright. Back to really question 1. I’m so sorry.
Anne O’Connor
Oh, now I’m gonna have to pull up my declaration of independence. Okay.
Jacob Barr
I I apologize for the wrong question. I did get sleep last night,
Speaker 3
so I
Jacob Barr
have no choice. No. I didn’t.
Anne O’Connor
I did get sleep.
Jacob Barr
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know when yeah. Alright. Question 1. What are the rights? Whether it’s civil rights I’m sorry.
What are rights? Whether it’s civil rights, human rights, or some other kind of right? And does abortion qualify as one or more of these rights?
Anne O’Connor
Yeah. Very interesting question. What are rights? You know, in America, we look at our foundational document, the declaration of independence for the basic rights that we all have as human beings. And this is what it says. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Those are the foundational rights for every person.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. Does legal equal moral? In other words, does legality entirely define morality?
Anne O’Connor
Absolutely not. There are laws that are passed and and decisions made by courts that are just outright wrong. Morality comes from our creator. And from him, he reveals what is right and wrong. And as human beings, when we pass laws or make decisions, for 50 years, but it was an unjust law. Had nothing to do with morality.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. Excellent answer. Question 3. The Dobbs decision. What is it, and why does it matter?
Anne O’Connor
The Dobbs decision was a case out of Mississippi that challenged Roe versus Wade. And it made its way up to the Supreme Court and they took it and decided to overturn Roe versus Wade. It was an incredible day. One I didn’t think I’d live to see because Roe had been in place for 50 years and we weren’t sure what the court would do. But the Dobbs decision, out of Mississippi, thank God for those faithful legislators and advocates and the attorney general and the governor from Mississippi for, challenging Roe in that way. Awesome.
Jacob Barr
What was Roe versus Wade? And in your legal opinion, was it legal was it a legally sound decision, constitutional, evidentially strong, responsible jurisprudence, etcetera?
Anne O’Connor
Roe versus Wade was the most egregiously decided opinion. And those are the words of the majority opinion in Dobbs ever in America. It was wrongly decided. When you read the backstory of it, there’s several studies now, on the back papers behind the Supreme Court decision in Roe. It was completely political and to get to a decision that the liberal justices wanted. It came out of this right of privacy in in the constitution that they interpreted out of nothing and made up and expanded to encompass a right of a woman to have an abortion. And thank God the court in Dobbs, set the record straight, and removed it from our constitutional language.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. Up until recently, the Roe versus Wade decision oh, question 5. 5. Up until recently, the Roe versus Wade decision basically got all the attention. When people talked about federal abortion policy and supreme court rulings, Roe was the reference point. Obviously, the Dobbs decision changed the conversation. But are there other landmark abortion cases that people should know about?
Anne O’Connor
Well, there’s definitely things that have been happening since Dobbs, overturned Roe. Until then, Roe ruled. So we didn’t have a lot of leeway, since Dobbs. Now we have the FDA case out of the 5th Circuit dealing with the abortion pill and how the FDA wrongly approved it. We have a lot of other cases surrounding abortion that involve first amendment rights like the NEFLA versus Becerra case that was decided back in 2018 where the state of California was trying to force pregnancy centers there to convey a message that violated their conscience, basically Basically referring women to abortion. So we see a lot of, first amendment cases surrounding the abortion. What what we’re required to say.
Also, conscience protection laws. There’s a case coming out of Illinois. We’re waiting for a decision any day now. We where we’ll see if they’re gonna protect the conscience protection, requirements for pro life physicians and medical providers, whether they have to participate in an abortion by referring and by also, telling the benefits of abortion to our patients.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. Thank you for sharing on that. Question 6. Some say abortion was legal in the US until religious activists started getting involved through the American Medical Association around 8 18/60. That, they say, is when states started banning abortion. In other words, abortion choice wasn’t controversial before about 18/60.
Is that even correct? And was abortion legally and morally uncontroversial before that time?
Anne O’Connor
That is incorrect. The there’s a great book by Marvin Olaski and Leah Sabas about the history of abortion from the beginning of America. And states actually protected the life. They assumed the life inside the womb was deserving of protection. And they prosecuted the men that would make these women victims and force them to have abortions. So I would recommend that book to to, people who have any question about the history of abortion in America.
Jacob Barr
Perfect. In the 19 seventies eighties, legislators tried and failed to pass a personhood amendment. Would you explain that strategy, what came of it, and whether it is still an option?
Anne O’Connor
I think that will always be an option. I think that’s our ultimate option. Right? We want the human being developing inside the womb to be protected as a person under the constitution. How we get there is gonna take a long road. It I probably will take a constitutional amendment, which is a very long road and it’s gonna take us on the streets in daily conversations and us in pregnancy centers talking to women every day about the value of the human life inside their womb.
Jacob Barr
Question 8. Do you want any water? Are you okay? Okay. K.
Speaker 3
I thought you were gonna make water.
Jacob Barr
I’m not trying to think of, like, a pun of, like, look. Jesus is here.
Anne O’Connor
Now I’m gonna take water. You turn
Jacob Barr
a glass of water. I thought you were gonna say,
Speaker 3
question 8, would you like any water? Question 9.
Jacob Barr
Okay. Democrat question 8.
Democrats seem to be united in the pro choice camp and Republicans in the pro life camp. Is that correct? And how have the party party’s views on abortion evolved over the years, say from 1972 forward?
Anne O’Connor
That’s definitely correct today. I mean, the democratic platform is pro abortion. The republican platform is still pro life, but it’s being challenged. So it’s not really a party issue. It’s a human life issue.
Jacob Barr
Good. Good. I don’t wanna move that too much forward. Question 9. How is the how has the wider abortion debate in America evolved slash changed in the last 50 years or so and then also in the last 5 to 10 years?
Anne O’Connor
Well, I think the the general idea even among Democrats, right, was let’s make abortion safe but rare, legal but rare. And now the the dialogue from them has changed. They’re celebrating their abortions. They’re declaring abortion as a reproductive right. So that has changed substantially. For the pro pro life side, our message has always been the same. You know, human life is valuable.
Every little human being created is in the image of God, and we need to protect the vulnerable.
Jacob Barr
To the best of your knowledge, is the anti abortion pro life lobby outmatched in terms of financing, influence, popularity compared to the
Anne O’Connor
like we’re totally unmatched. I think it’s pretty much like Goliath and David. Right? They’re big. They got the media. They got a lot of legislative power. They have a huge voice.
And we’re like David coming along with 5 stones. Right? But we know how that ended. And that’s how this will end too. There will be victory because God is in this. God wants his creations to be protected. So Goliath will soon be laying on the ground and conquered.
Jacob Barr
That’s awesome. What are some of the most effective legal arguments for abortion? And then the same question for against abortion.
Anne O’Connor
In my opinion, there’s no effective argument for abortion. There never could be because it’s a taking of a human life. So our argument is, on the pro life side, you cannot take another human life. I mean, yes, it’s inside the womb so they say, oh, my body, my choice, you know. But it’s technically a separate distinct human being that’s valuable. And instead of encouraging women to get rid of it, let’s empower them to have that baby. Empower them if they want a parent, if they want a place for adoption, give them options.
Jacob Barr
That’s good. Question 12. Explain the abortion choice argument.
My body, my choice. Is this bodily autonomy, bodily
Anne O’Connor
and the unborn child is developing for at least 9 months, around 9 months inside a woman’s womb. So it is complicated. But because of the residence of the unborn child and the age of the unborn child, We can’t discriminate against it and take its life. So instead, we should be doing things that empower women, first of all, to not get pregnant, to value their bodies enough to have sexual integrity in that regard. And then if they do become pregnant, enable them to go through those 9 months protecting and valuing the unborn child rather than taking the quick solution and erasing that child from life.
Jacob Barr
Question how are we doing on time when it comes to the recording? 11:22. I mean, like, on here. Oh, 18. Plus we have 10 more minutes before we have the okay. Perfect. The load. Okay. Question 13.
Some argue that pro choice policy is an extension of the first amendment separating church and state. In other words, they say churches and their religious laws have no business telling women what they can or can’t do with their bodies. Is this a correct application of the first amendment?
Anne O’Connor
So there are religious arguments for the value of of life. Right? But there are also scientific arguments. Like I said earlier, ethicists, biologic biology ethicists are unanimous that human life begins at conception. It has nothing to do with religion, if you don’t have that viewpoint. If you have the viewpoint from a biblical perspective, then, yeah, it even emphasizes more the value of that human life. So it has nothing to do with church state and it’s it’s not, you know, the church keep your hands off my body at all.
It’s let let’s value all human beings no matter if they reside in the womb or not.
Jacob Barr
- Some argue that abortion choice policy has parallels to slavery, dehumanizing oppressed people group or, oppressed people groups, legalized evil, etcetera, is there a valid analogy between abortion and slavery? What guidance or caution would you recommend for anyone using this analogy?
Anne O’Connor
I think there can be an analogy. We had to be very careful there and we both were huge atrocities, right, against crimes against humanity. And I actually had done a speech a long time ago on Abraham Lincoln, you know, how he fought slavery and his words, but use them in the pro life context? And can we use his arguments against slavery, in the pro life context? And they’re they’re perfect. Like, for example, Abraham Lincoln said, if slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. And that’s true about abortion.
If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong.
Jacob Barr
That’s powerful. Number 15.
Pivoting to another legal relevant issue in the abortion debate. What is the Equal Rights Amendment? How close was it to passing? Why hasn’t it been passed yet? And in your view, does equality mean between men and women mean identical treatment in every sphere of society, including the freedom to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy?
Anne O’Connor
Yeah. The attempts to pass that have been going on for decades. Right? And, of course, I believe in equal rights for women. Right? But I also think there’s a distinction and it doesn’t mean for me to be equal with a man, I have to be exactly like a man. Like, I can’t be pregnant.
Like, for example, the the Olympic athlete who was pregnant and she was a track star, none of the she she got dropped from all her marketing groups that supported her because she was pregnant and they thought it would affect her, not make her strong enough. So she said, I’m still doing it and I’m gonna create my own line. And she went in that year won 9 medal 9 gold medals, I think it was, running in the Olympics.
She had her baby. She was fantastic. That’s what equal means.
Like, look at women. We have the gift of being able to have life be placed inside us and grow and and give birth to a new life. That should be treasured. It’s it’s something men don’t have, and making men and women equal shouldn’t be taking that away.
Jacob Barr
That’s awesome. They’re 16. There are laws oh, how are we doing on time?
Is it 24? 23. 23. Okay. Number 16.
There are laws in the books oh, wait. This is the if there were laws in the books. Right, John? So if this is number, if there were laws in the books against death profiteering,
Speaker 3
this is the I don’t know what the rest of the sentence is. I can’t tell you if
Jacob Barr
In your view, would abortion qualify as so I I think the idea the death death profiteering doesn’t exist on the books. Right?
Speaker 3
Yeah. Can you just ask the question and I’ll tell you
Jacob Barr
how I’ve edited it? Oh, probably just I thought
Speaker 3
I just sent it to you wrong.
Jacob Barr
And will you give us a clap, Isaac? Thank you. There are laws on the books against death profiteering. In your view, would abortion qualify as death profiteering? And would that connection qualify as a viable federal law banning for profit abortions?
Anne O’Connor
Well, that’s certainly an interesting question. The abortion is definitely profit from, performing abortions. So it might be something to look into in the future.
Jacob Barr
Perfect. Number 17. Does abortion qualify as a crime against humanity?
Anne O’Connor
I absolutely call it a crime against humanity. It’s one of the greatest. And I think one day, the world will recognize that and regret it.
Jacob Barr
Number 18. Is abortion law and policy for sale to the highest bidder irrespective of what’s right, good, or true?
Anne O’Connor
I think we really have to cling to what is right and true. Right? It’s clear human life begins at conception. So we really can’t compromise. Now there’s always give and take and it might be a little incremental, but we can’t compromise on the very truth that human life from the moment of conception deserves protection and should be valued.
Jacob Barr
Number 19. Abortion has sometimes been described with extravagant language like genocide and holocaust. Legally speaking, is this language more or less correct? And then is it helpful? Are there contexts where you would use this language and others where you would not use use it?
Anne O’Connor
Well, I think, in the future, time will tell. I think the history books will look back on this period of just rampant abortion internationally as a horrendous time?
Speaker 4
The
Jacob Barr
question 20. There is a debate in the anti abortion camp between abolitionism and incrementalism. Would you explain these two positions and what difference it makes?
Anne O’Connor
Yeah. They’re the abolitionists are on the extreme side, no compromise at all. And they even sometimes don’t like how pregnancy centers handle things because we know the woman has a choice and we are there to help her, empower her to make a choice for life. The incremental ists are interested in going slowly at chipping away from abortion, but the problem with that is if you get stuck in one increment and never proceed, which is pretty much what’s happened internationally. So we have to have a balance. I think we need both sides, so we could get to a balance of where most Americans, will feel comfortable, and that is recognizing and valuing all human life.
Jacob Barr
And the last question is 21. What would you like to say about the legal history of abortion that you are not asked about?
Anne O’Connor
So abortion is is very complicated. I think we’ll have lots more opportunities in the future to make law in this area. It takes a long time to bring cases, to the Supreme Court. So in the meantime, I think we have to be working on an individual basis with our neighbors, with our families, helping pregnancy centers who are daily empowering women to choose life, and spread the good news about, the positive aspects of being pro life.
Jacob Barr
Awesome. And that’s John, do you have anything?
Speaker 3
Oh, I didn’t know it was gonna be s. I would’ve thought of something.
Jacob Barr
Well, we have Anne and you both in the same room.
Speaker 3
Let’s see. Sense any kind of disconnect, between, different factions of the pro life movement that you think from a legal perspective, might be handicapping the cause. That’s kind of broad. I don’t know.
Jacob Barr
I’ve got a question. Oh, yeah. I’ll buy you 3 minutes.
Speaker 3
Well well, I’m I’m interested in any other, pro life cases that, besides Roto and Dobbs, because we’re gonna try to cover everything. We’re gonna try to have at least some reference to anything that bore upon abortion choice policy in America. So, let’s see. Casey, some of the the earlier, was about contraception.
Jacob Barr
Mhmm.
Speaker 3
I think they argued in on the basis of, you know, indecency laws were were over were were too much and and that was kind of, used to sort of bust up. Well, let’s
Jacob Barr
let’s do a a But
Speaker 3
I don’t remember the names of any of the cases.
Jacob Barr
Anne, would you tell us a little bit about, Niffler versus Pacira? Mhmm. I think that might be that that’d be a good one for us to feature here. Mhmm. You could tell us about, you know, what it is and then just share your thoughts on Nifla versus Bacara.
Anne O’Connor
Mhmm. So Nifla versus Becara was a case out of California. In 2015, California passed a law that said pregnancy centers, pro life pregnancy centers, had a post assign in their waiting room in up to 13 different languages, depending on the county, that said, hey, you may be entitled to a free abortion or a low cost abortion, call this 800 number. And so in some counties, like in LA County, it would plaster an entire wall having signs like that. And it had to be in a certain font and all that. And so that’s compelling us to give a message that we disagree with. Right? Classic first amendment case.
And right away, we sued on behalf of all our we have over a 100 centers in California and ADF represented us. And we sued for an injunction, and we lost at the district court. They didn’t give us the injunction, which we were shocked at. So it got appealed to the 9th Circuit. They ruled against us. Right? Which we were shocked at because it’s clear first amendment protection.
So got appealed up to the US Supreme Court and 8,000 cases a year get appealed to the Supreme Court and they take 1% of the cases. And our chances of getting there were slim. So we were hopeful and we and we had centers across the nation praying. Because if California got away with this, you know, New York was gonna do it next. Vermont, Illinois was just chomping at the bit, Maryland, etcetera. Right? So on that great day that we learned that the supreme court took our case, we were just praising god.
The oral argument came and it was fascinating. We were there, of course, and Mike Farris from ADF represented us. And then the decision came down a few months later. And, Clarence Thomas wrote our decision, our decision. So as soon as we heard he was the author of our decision, we knew we won. Because Clarence Thomas is a strict, interpreter of the constitution and values what the first amendment says about compelled speech. And so it was a great day, not only for NFLA and for pregnancy centers, but for the first amendment.
And it’s been cited more than 2,000 times since then, protecting just first amendment rights across the board. So it was a great day. It is a basis for our, challenge in Illinois, where they’re trying to force, medical providers to make a direct referral to an abortionist and also to counsel our patients on the benefits of abortion. Of course, there are no benefits of abortion. So we’re citing NSSLHA versus Becerra to support us in that case, and that judge will be deciding that case, hopefully in the next month.