Hear Ron Brown & Jacob Barr argue over abortion. Ron comes from the prochoice viewpoint while Jacob holds the prolife viewpoint.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and I recently had a fascinating discussion on my podcast with Ron Brown. We delved deep into the complex issues surrounding the pro-life and pro-choice debate. Pastor Melanie’s email about disclaimers for our podcast, especially in the context of episodes featuring sensitive topics like abortion, was a timely intervention, reminding us of the diversity of views and the importance of respectful dialogue.
Ron and I, coming from opposing sides of the abortion debate, engaged in a thought-provoking conversation. We explored the nuances of our perspectives, understanding that while we hold different views, it’s essential to listen and try to comprehend the other side. We discussed the moral, ethical, and psychological aspects of abortion, touching on topics like the sanctity of life, women’s rights, and the societal implications of abortion laws.
Our discussion was not about winning an argument but rather about understanding each other’s viewpoints and the complexities of this deeply personal and contentious issue. We agreed that conversations like these are crucial for society to navigate such sensitive topics.
Here are some hashtags that encapsulate the essence of our discussion: #ProLifeProChoiceDialogue, #RespectfulDebate, #UnderstandingDifferences, #AbortionEthics, #MoralComplexities, #WomensRights, #SanctityOfLife, #SocietalImplications, #PodcastDiscussion.
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Jacob Barr :
So this is a legal insert. So while editing this podcast from last night and sort of spilling over into This Morning in the Middle, I received an email from a previous podcast guest Pastor Melanie. And essentially it was with the suggestion that maybe I should have something that says the views expressed in the interviews are not necessarily those of I Rapture, maybe those of the host, those of the pro-life team Podcast. And so I think that’s very timely and I feel like God’s fingerprints were on this email because I was literally working on an episode where it’s a pro-choice person and a pro-life person engaging in dialogue and conversation. And so obviously, iRapture.com does not share the beliefs of, you know, of this pro-choice side. And so here I am adding in the disclaimer text to say, yeah, some of the views expressed in this podcast do not reflect upon the host or the sponsor or the organizations and companies that make it so that we can that this podcast can take place. And so, yeah, without further ado, let’s hear the podcast. Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast i’m here with Ron Brown and we’re going to be talking about pro-life and pro-choice arguments this show will also be posted on Ron Ron’s YouTube channel as well as the pro-life Team podcast channel. And so I hope that you find this interesting and please comment as you have thoughts and things for us to discuss next time we talk.
Ron Brown :
Yeah well, so the, like, i kind of pitched this to you, right yeah and because it’s like, I’ve been thinking lately that it’s so important to be able to have friends who disagree with you, because it’s like, you’re pro-life and I’m pro-choice right so, like, you might follow different strands of information than I follow and vice versa and so I may like, it’s like on my side of things. Like I’m probably seeing my side at its best and your side at its worst, my side at its smartest, yours at its most ridiculous and you’re seeing the exact opposite. You know what I mean that’s a good.
Jacob Barr :
Point yeah because a lot of us, yeah, I can i can totally imagine how that would play out. And because I’m always forgiving my side ridiculousness because I know that there’s something better. And then, and I’m probably holding on to the ridiculousness of the other side’s worst, because that helps support.
Ron Brown :
My viewpoint? Well, letting, yes so it’s like, is there some confirmation bias and then in psychology, they have this thing called the fundamental attribution error, which basically means when you or someone you like does something, well, you attribute it to their character. But when they do something poorly, you’re more likely to blame it on their circumstances. But when someone on the other side does something good, you might ignore it or just minimize it, like a broken clock theory or, you know, they only did it because somebody was watching them. But if they screw up evil, right. And so. But yeah, like, so the idea was that it’s like, I think a good thing with us is like you and I, we each knew we were on opposite sides of this right away. Like we’ll look soon on.
Jacob Barr :
And but I wouldn’t just back for you. I wouldn’t say complete opposite true because like if let’s say we have positive ten all the way to negative ten.
Ron Brown :
Right and let’s say.
Jacob Barr :
One of those sizes. Pro-life all the way to pro-choice.
Ron Brown :
Right i would put you.
Jacob Barr :
Closer to like let’s say on that scale, more of like about a three on your side of past zero.
Ron Brown :
That would, yeah so I’m definitely pro-choice but I’m not like well, it’s like I showed you that article I once put up on a Reddit group rates like all the things that people on my side do that are embarrassing me and one of them is assuming that people like you must hate women. But yeah, so the idea is that we have this relationship that goes way beyond this one particular area of not full of disagreement. And you know, we’re a part of a wonderful church where we’re filming from right here so we have a vested interest in maintaining harmony and the church in harmony with each other. And I think because we know each other in this community, we know each other in 17 other ways other than this disagreement. And so while we may disagree with each other on this thing, it’s like each one of us has seen the other be a good person in many other contexts and so we can’t easily write each other off as bad people are stupid, and nor do we want to. But compare that if we if you and I were just anonymous people on the Internet hiding behind our keyboards, it’s like the only way we know each other is this disagreement right now.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, there wouldn’t be any rapport or relationship to lean on to navigate and I think it’s important for people to, when they’re talking to, you know, to include common ground and not to focus only on the differences because that just simply creates battlefield more so than like a communication yeah of back and forth right it’s also interesting that you know you’ve gone through some a lot of changes in the past eight to 10 months or when did you? Yeah, can you give us like, the snapshot of your journey, your yo, your road to Damascus journey?
Ron Brown :
Yeah, it was one of those. I started coming to this church like last July as an atheist just because I wanted community and you know, I learned from people like Jordan Peterson there’s a lot of wisdom in the Bible and Christian practices, and not all of it requires you to believe in God, to see the value. So I came for those reasons and then, you know, I woke into detail but I, you know, I met a girl here and we were dating for a few months and she broke up with me saying that it was because she couldn’t get past the atheism. And so I said I’d look into it seriously i didn’t think my mind was going to change and I wasn’t going to pretend if it didn’t. And I thought, I thought the odds were awful, like I used to be an atheist activist i’m very intellectual it’s not like I’ve never had 35,000 thousand of these conversations. Before and it’s like, what are the odds I’m going to hear a new argument tomorrow that I haven’t heard in the last 17 years? Well, I did, and it literally was tomorrow. But yeah, basically just to like to nutshell it. My best friend, one of my best friends were growing up. He had become a Christian several years ago. He was a scientific rationalist, just as I am. He told me that the more he read about Christianity and the relevant history, the more he couldn’t not believe on rational grounds. And the big thing was he showed me the Old Testament prophecies of the birth, life, death, resurrection of Christ. And like, he just showed me, like, in every way that you want to dismiss this it doesn’t work well, like what? The Jewish people, they’re going to let you re edit their Torah to make them look wrong like, that’s off. Like, are the guards going to, like, pull a reverse Epstein and fall asleep in the job so Jesus can come back to life well, that probably would have got them killed. Like, any way you look at it, that’s kind of what made me think this is a reasonable faith am I certain that no. But before I used to think it was just a vacuous faith now I think it’s a reasonable faith.
Jacob Barr :
Awesome yeah, I think that’s a good back story to what brought us to this point of this podcast. So would you like to go first or would you like me to go first with presenting an argument like I could present an argument for why I think abortion is wrong or unacceptable or would you like to go first for why you would present it as?
Ron Brown :
What about this what if we we’ll do that?
Jacob Barr :
We can summarize our current maybe stances.
Ron Brown :
How about this? What if I try and make your case for you as well as I possibly can and you try and make my case for me as well as you can?
Jacob Barr :
That would be hard for me to because i actually, I’ve never tried to argue the pro-choice side legitimately and so i’m sure that might be i would probably be I would probably spout off so false belief this guy I don’t really believe in.
Ron Brown :
Oh, no oK, We’ll just like, you know, we’re 10 we’re in debate class, you’ve been assigned, you know, you don’t have to agree with it, but you have to defend it and me too want me to go first? Sure so my verse, like it’s going to be relatively quick for me like one you could go the religious road. Like you can certainly cite verses in the Bible like, you know, thou shalt not kill and that will impress a lot of people. I personally don’t want to lean on those kind of arguments you know, we live in a country of separation of church and state. I like the way Sam Harris or sorry Ben Shapiro puts it where he says when he even if his position is religiously informed, as him being an Orthodox Jew, he will never make the policy arguments with and by invoking the text because he realizes that a lot of Americans do not accept his text as being authoritative. So he will always put it in secular terms. And then further there’s other religions have different views on abortion, so why prioritize one over others so what I will do but like so secularizing the argument, I think your position can be summarized in an understandable way very easily. You should not kill human life. This is a human life don’t kill it or let me rephrase that. You should not kill innocent human life. This is innocent human life. Don’t kill it the syllogism is just completely straightforward.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and i would say the pro-choice argument might be yeah, I would i would imagine someone thinking maybe God doesn’t exist and therefore there is no moral compass to make decisions based off and so I’m going to make decisions however I want, but i’m sort of new and trying to argue the pro-choice interesting idea. But I would, I would think it would be a matter of removing. Yeah removing the moral in the morality of how, you know, if you, if you were to say, I don’t believe in the Bible. If I yeah, if I said it, I don’t believe in the Bible, I don’t believe in God. And that would support me doing, you know, where’s the moral compass come from and so therefore, for people who don’t believe in God, i still think that, yeah, I’m seeing all sorts of holes in my argument and so it’s actually really hard to argue for the opposite of what I really believe and think.
Ron Brown :
Well, yeah, well, in an atheist would say too about. I know that because I was one. And I still have a lot of sympathy for this argument, which is that we don’t get our values from the Bible when we read the Bible like, we already have a certain set of values and that’s why we hyper emphasize certain verses and explain away a whole bunch of others. You know, it’s like we’re cherry picking our way through. But yeah, we’ll do so do you want to, like, do you want to add it so I made the best case I could for your side. Is there anything you’d add to that, like and is there any way you could have made it even better than I?
Jacob Barr :
That I did. So I would say. I would actually add back in, even though baby Ben Shapiro leaves it out to be at that second i would actually say the reason why abortion is wrong is because there is the, you know, the, I would say it’s founded in the truth in the, you know, the Bible is an ultimate source of like ancient law or ancient truth that’s been around for a long time. And it says in the 10 commandments, you know, thou shalt not kill, which is directly, yeah very clearly speaking to abortion along the other killing it also I believe that each person is made in the image of God and it’s also coming from biblical text. And so the reason why someone should not, you know why abortion is wrong is because the child who is in the womb and being threatened is made in the image of God, which gives them value. And in the Bible also says thou shalt not kill, which is a direct commandment from God brought down from yeah on the 10 Commandments.
Ron Brown :
So I get that, but I guess then we start getting into things like tyranny of the majority. So this is a country that is technically, it’s a country of separation of church and state, but it’s also a country that’s majority Christian, right? And so let’s say like a Christian majority agrees on something like if it’s just a straight democratic vote for the policy, then it’s there you’re going to have a tyranny of the majority kind of situation. And i that’s I think one of the, but that’s what the Bill of Rights and the you know all the Constitution are all about protecting against like those kind of things like so like you know everyone is granted free speech for example, you know no establishment of one religion as being authoritative. And so it’s like, even though I get like that, like you have your position and it’s informed by your religion, right but I’m very nervous about applying one person’s religious beliefs like enforcing them on others. It’s kind of like you wouldn’t want like if Muslims started like becoming very like common in Tucson and like city ordinance were put in place that reflected Islamic law like i imagine you don’t want to have to follow the rules of a religion that you don’t subscribe to.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, I probably, yeah i don’t think I’d want to follow the religious rules of religious religion i don’t subscribe to. But when it comes to, you know, not killing, it’s that that’s also been established, that’s established law i don’t think anyone is saying.
Ron Brown :
We should we should.
Jacob Barr :
You know, overturn that law and make and make killing people or murder making homicide legal i don’t hear anyone arguing that we should make homicide legals i don’t think that that’s really an issue here.
Ron Brown :
Yeah so that’s where I’m most comfortable with your argument so like that what everything you just said, it was 100 % secular. Oh great so like to me like, that’s like great.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah. And as a person who could run for political office or as a person who has ideas, you know, my beliefs are weaved into my thoughts and my position. And so for me, I can say This is why I believe things. And it’s not really up to me to figure out why someone else should, you know, believe that. But at least for myself, I can say it’s because of the religious text is very important to you.
Ron Brown :
Know what it’s a tough one to you, right because it’s like in a way it’s like it’s a democracy. Who cares why you want something if you want something, you vote for it right but then you get into the civil liberties things to hear anything majority it’s very murky very messy yeah. But yeah, well, we so how about I’ll return the favor Also I’ll kind of. I’ll give you the why I’m pro-choice OK. So there’s a few things. One, I guess the biggest thing is that a fetus for all we can tell, is not conscious. And maybe at a certain point it becomes conscious and so and so maybe it might even feel the pain of the abortion very briefly and maybe not even at all like at a certain point definite, almost definitely not at all. Right so there’s that set of priorities, right. But then there’s also, it’s like the mother has to carry this fetus for nine months. Like in under no under circumstances do we let someone else like basically commandeer our body and its resources. So actually I can even think of a counter argument to that actually, it’s The thing is not only do some pro-life people not like me very much, but some pro-choice people don’t either. And it’s because I actually like, will often argue in favor of the man’s right to have a financial abortion because why should she have the ability to forgo responsibility and not he And then something it’s so funny it’s like sometimes they’ll respond back to me by saying if he if he couldn’t handle the consequences, he should have kept it in his pants it’s like, oh, I didn’t know you were pro-life when did that happen? I’ve had that happen so many times.
Jacob Barr :
I mean, I’ll respond to that one. So when it comes to all of these things, like not being conscience you have or maybe not being aware of their surroundings or whether they feel pain or not, I would just say essentially we’re talking about someone at the very beginning of their life. They haven’t had a birthday yet. They’re currently still in the womb. They’re growing, maybe their hearts fully developed. And for many people the brain is not fully developed anything until 25 or 28 but they’re, you know, most of the organs are not fully developed until they’re you know, at some point but all that to say is if we were to walk out a toddler, he was also not able to feel pain or pain or not aware of their surroundings, or they’re aware of their surroundings or that causes their mom lots of sleepless nights or, you know, they’re having to do they’re doing temper tantrums i don’t think anyone would argue that it’s OK to kill them, That the toddler who would have the same exact you know, like scenarios perhaps.
Ron Brown :
Well, I think in order to make this more equivalent, like it’s almost like the author would basically have to be in a coma, Like it’d be like the Terry Schiavo situation or something, you know, because if the toddler is actually out and moving around and doing things, if you.
Jacob Barr :
Think about it, toddlers brains are only two years old they have 26 more years to develop until their brain is developed and so for them to not understand like they have much greater understanding than let’s say a six week old like obviously a much greater understanding their brain is 2 years more developed right? However, I don’t think how much someone knows should dictate you know it being OK to kill them. Like if you compared a toddler to a 21 year old, you know the 21 year old would normally be more aware would it would probably feel more pain and different their body i don’t think you know how much pain someone feels or how much aware how where’s, how much awareness they have would say it’s OK for us to, you know, in the case of homicide, we’re not going to investigate the toddler being killed.
Ron Brown :
Well, I guess it’s so it’s like in a lot of times you ever notice when you’re making these arguments like, it’s like you have your starting position and then you find arguments for its second, like i do that and I but I try to be honest about it, right? But.
Jacob Barr :
My starting point is walk out the toddler compared to the, you know, the preborn child who yeah.
Ron Brown :
Ok, so the toddler though is sentient, right? So that’s the difference, right. And so if that was illegal, then we would set the precedent that it is OK to kill innocent sentient agents. Whereas if it’s a fetus, we don’t have to believe that it’s sentient, like, you know, expecting most abortions are performed rather early, right so we’re not like anywhere close to the 2626 eight, 28 like some of that happened then but like the overall, I think it’s like 90 % or something happened by I think 12 weeks something.
Jacob Barr :
Well, even if it happens, let’s say you know, moments after conception and we’re talking about could be as small as a single cell Organism at that point, like you know, and it and it double S and it, you know, double S again. But let’s say we’re, you know all the way back i mean essentially that that’s a new life, a new person, a new DNA that’s been created and it’s going forward unless you stop it, which is what Kinley is of stopping prematurely stopping it or ending it and if you don’t stop it, then it will continue into a person who could then create generations of.
Ron Brown :
And then, like an atheist pro-choice person might respond to that by saying that you know, like a sizable percentage of conceived of conceptions and then like miscarriages and so that would make God the most prolific abortionist of all time. And they would say that. And they would also like, say it’s like, well, since like, fetuses frequently don’t make it. But I guess the response is nobody gets like, people get upset if a if a tree blows over and crushes your car. But it’s not the same thing as if some person goes into sort of smashing it up in the baseball bat, like, you can’t punish the wind. It wouldn’t do anything. But you certainly can deter people from smashing up people’s car by throwing them in jail for it.
Jacob Barr :
Yes, I think it was. I remember watching listen to an episode by Jordan Peterson who was talking about the difference between evil and what was the other word essentially like the difference between like a volcano ruining a city compared to a someone who intentionally ruined a city that’s him aside or something exactly. So there’s a difference between tragedy and evil. So like, so a miscarriage would be tragic, yes, but it wasn’t caused by a person with an intentional action. And so that’s whereas if someone intentionally ends the life of a child, then that would be in the lines of evil compared to it happening based on that, based on nature, then that would be more like tragic, but not necessarily evil.
Ron Brown :
Yeah, volcanoes aren’t sentient the person setting off the bomb is, I think that, but so that was one part of the sentience it wasn’t everything though. There was also that they’re not part of any social relationships yet, right? And nor do they have any life plans so it’s not like you’re ruining the plans their big vision for their future, they don’t have it. It’s not like you’re taking them away from the people they have relationships with. They are like 8 months away or six months away from having their first relationship, right so it’s not going to be disrupting relationships. And so in a lot of ways, the idea is it’s.
Jacob Barr :
Sort of completely disrupting relationships because they’re not even going to have the opportunity to create plan.
Ron Brown :
No, of course execute yeah well so for other people’s relationships with the baby, it’s that they might approach choice person would say a woman is not responsible for ensuring that you can have a relationship with her baby. Like that’s not her duty. If she doesn’t want it to be that they can say that. But I guess another thing is that basically it’s like in this case the primary victim is the aborted fetus who is a part of no social relationships. And so there’s well, that’s one thing they will feel little or absolutely no pain but and none of their they have no future plans you know to disrupt i think these a lot of these things they blocked the setting of a dangerous precedent they can move on to people that are beyond the birth. But I would also say too is like, OK, so, but let’s look at the other side, right? If you’re like a young mother or a couple and often times the guy just screws off, it’s often it is her just by herself. Maybe she’s 17 or 18, not ready for this kid can’t afford and you know, we live in a society that’s very fragmented. Families are smaller people, though they don’t participate in great communities like ours. So they might feel and actually relatively alone, like that’s going to really just alter the course of the mother’s life amazingly you like and it could be bad it could be good, but it could be very bad. And then how? And then like the, you know, like the people around her who now have to kind of like jump in to help her out because it’s such a big challenge. There’s the guy, if he is involved, you know is he paying child support, all that kind of stuff. And then also it’s like, what kind of? It’s not a good idea i don’t think all else equal, it’s better for parents to want the child and be excited to have them than for them not to.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, but I did. Again I think it’s based off of size placement. You know, the fact that they’re small inside the womb we’re somehow treating them as a different treating them differently than if they were to be outside the yes and slightly larger and so when it comes to that mom you know, thinking you know how who are we to say that she shouldn’t be able to well have one less financial burden by having a child. I would, I would just say we wouldn’t apply that to a toddler we wouldn’t, but we wouldn’t apply that to we wouldn’t apply that to her 18 year old who’s eating her out of house and home because he’s you know growing and just eating a lot. But you know, here we are we’re applying it to a small child who is consuming a lot less than one of her older children might be consuming and but based on how much someone eats is not a reason to kill them. Based on the, you know, based on the fact that they’re going to require time and energy is not a reason to kill them. Most pregnancies are based on two people wanting to be together and so the fact that the pregnancy took place it’s already it’s already you know the mom that person is already a mom she’s already pregnant and it’s not like we can end in the pregnancy as a way of saying ending the life of the child who it’s like essentially we’re the pro-choice argument is arguing to support mothers in ending their offsprings life and I feel like that’s that definitely falls into that evil category more so than the tragic.
Ron Brown :
I can see where you’re coming from there yeah, Like and it’s like i view it differently but like, what you’re saying is not ridiculous. It may, and I totally get why someone would genuinely believe it.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah. And so when it comes to abortion, do you think all abortions are OK or certain abortions are OK and certain abortions are not OK how would you define where you stand in this?
Ron Brown :
So by actively like, and I think you’re already kind of showing the consequences of my logic here by extending it to toddlers like right. And like I’m not sure if it goes as far as that. But I will say that like every argument I said would be completely consistent with being able to kill the baby when he was halfway out of the uterus. You know, because like everything I said about like, you know, the thing a few months ago still applies now. Like, maybe they might feel a little more pain, But again, it’s like a few seconds at worst over right? And so that’s bad, right and so it’s kind of like we’ve talked about how with you, I think you’re pretty OK with abortion in cases of rape, things like that.
Jacob Barr :
No OK yeah. And but at the same time that’s probably under 1 %.
Ron Brown :
Yes oh yeah no, I’m not going to use that as an excuse to justify all the others i’m not going to hold.
Jacob Barr :
Them but actually I know a speaker i met him at a conference a few months ago his name is Steven Thinn and his mom was gang raped and he is the child that came from that and his story is amazing and I would just say that his life has great purpose and for me just to assume that anyone that would be the product of rape would be essentially diminishing Stevenson’s life and his name is so unique i don’t know anyone else with the name Stevenson, like, it’s a very unique spelling. I think there’s only one on the Internet, only one Steven thing, but I need.
Ron Brown :
You to find him.
Jacob Barr :
He is easy to find, but I would just say like, you know the story of someone who has. Yeah whose mom was in that scenario and the fact that his life has great value represents a really interesting counter argument to how many people will just simply say it’s OK to kill the child based on the fact that the dad or the father raped the mother. Ok, and then yeah, rape and incest like those are the 2.
Ron Brown :
Are yeah.
Jacob Barr :
And often get thrown in.
Ron Brown :
There and they get, they get used to justify pro-choice across the board it’s like, OK, that’s the marginal case where where?
Jacob Barr :
Else, do we use the 1 % to justify the 99 %?
Ron Brown :
By Wall Street.
Jacob Barr :
Ok, well, I mean, but it’s logically that it’s.
Ron Brown :
Logically, we’re using the exception to justify the majority.
Jacob Barr :
Exactly and I was even to argue that the exception can be used to at least argue the exception but maybe we should focus on right instead of complicating things beyond. Yeah, we could probably use the normal case to argue for the normal case.
Ron Brown :
Right, exactly like, I think, like, I’ve seen Steven Crowder, who’s also pro-life talking about how he’s like, fine, I will accept all those marginal cases where, you know, abortion after rape and incest fine, no problem danger to the mother fine, no problem. I will grant you that collective one or less % of the cases. Now let’s talk about the other 99 that doesn’t work i know, you know, but it’s like, so let’s separate those two, which is what whereas a lot of portrayers like to conflate them and impede them, treat them all as this big one big amorphous package that that’s a package deal.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah like there’s cases of forced abortion such as, you know, someone, let’s say someone’s being sex trafficked and they are, they got impregnated by, you know, by having a pimp, forcing them to have sex 15 times a day. And they’re being, you know, they’re using the abortion as a way of treating, you know, so they can get back to, you know, back to being used in the sex trafficking world. And there’s like there’s, you know, there’s so many layers of issues with some scenarios where you really need to focus on the woman getting out of that entire space and provide, you know, I’m finding healing and there’s a lot, there’s other issues that are, you know, really important to address and like that’s really hard to consider and think about like it but at the same time, then there’s Stephenson, who was born and his mom was in a terrible situation, but yet his life still has this amazing value, even though the circumstances of his conception were horrific.
Ron Brown :
Yes. And in a way like it’s all like, obviously I disagree with you on this one, right but I will say I even like the entire time I’ve been pro-choice which has been the entire time that I’ve had an opinion on it one way or the other. I’ve always had a certain measure of respect for people that say what you just said because at least you’re being consistent. It’s like the whole thing is this is an innocent human life well, even like the fact that his dad or her dad was a rapist, like we’re going to punish her for that or him for that like that’s a so like in a way it’s like i appreciate the consistence and I see that follows from the beliefs.
Jacob Barr :
And I think everyone that is looking to choose abortion, whether it may not be rape, but let’s say they have other, you know, they have a lot of complex, like they feel like they have no other choice like they feel like they can’t afford something they have that they have all these plans they’re, you know, let’s say they’re selfish they have there’s something that is driving them to want to choose abortion or feel like they think they must choose abortion. And I think that the argument of rape is just one out of many that drive someone to that, to that conclusion. And I think a lot of it comes from, you know, when Planned Parenthood says, Are you ready to be a parent? Well, that’s a pretty loaded question because who’s really ready to be a parent? Like, if you, honestly, if you asked all the parents out there who already have kids, were you ready? I would say most parents would say I wasn’t ready but I’m really glad I did like that’s that ‘d be a.
Ron Brown :
Commonly or they might say I was as ready as I reasonably could be best case scenario, right?
Jacob Barr :
Or I wasn’t ready and it you know and God is bigger than me being ready or there’s, you know, there’s grace. And I it took me a 10 years to figure out how to be a good parent like that’s like that’s a response that I could imagine hearing quite often. And just because someone’s not ready doesn’t. Well the reality is that they’re already pregnant they’re already a mom. And then they’re thinking, well, yeah, Planned Parenthood essentially is saying, you know you can you can not be pregnant. But in the reality is that they’re already pregnant like to stop pregnancy would happen before pregnancy, not to end it In the middle is a way of having an abortion or killing.
Ron Brown :
So I’m going to praise you about one thing. But before I do that, like, yeah, like I i’ve been being very complimentary to this whole time and so I know there’s some pro-choice three out there who hates me right now because I’m not destroying you and I’m being way too nice to you. So, you know, I will just restate, you know, like my position is based on, like, I essentially, I guess it boils down to what will create the most human well-being with the least human cause cost and for that reason, to me, the answer is pro-choice But what I will say here, and here’s the here’s the compliment for you, is one of the big criticisms from pro-choice people, particularly pro-choice people on the left, is you Republican, conservative, Christians. You only care about the baby when it’s in the womb once it’s born, you’re on your own you don’t want to help them you don’t you want low taxes, You don’t have to pay for anyone else’s stuff. Well, you work for a pregnancy crisis.
Jacob Barr :
We do we work for, well, I have a company that works for sub yeah but at the same time I feel like if you try and say well you know if you were to go to the let’s say the an anti cancer group and you told them, well you need to also fix you know, why aren’t you fixing poverty, why aren’t you fixing world, you know world hunger?
Ron Brown :
I mean, but I get the point of approach or issues because it’s like you want to force me to have a child I don’t want and then you don’t want to help me with a child you are not that you are like your organization is like basically doesn’t it basically amount to saying we understand it’s hard to have a child when you’re nowhere near ready we’re here to help you.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, so pricey centers will provide parent free parenting classes. They provide free resources while someone’s pregnant like ultrasound and pricey tests and counseling they also will provide usually like if someone takes a parenting class, they earn what’s called, you know, mommy bucks, which they can then spend in the store to buy clothes, cribs, materials you know they get they can get free diapers and formula and that’s, but usually, but the whole point of these basic clinics is to help people that are currently facing a crisis because they’re looking to choose abortion because they think they have no other choice. But then these other services are secondary, but they’re often provided, but they’re not the focus of the work the focus is the sort of like help the, you know, the mom who’s experiencing this burning building scenario and they’re trying to help her get out before they try and help her with the next steps.
Ron Brown :
And I do appreciate you guys coming in to say, look, we don’t want you to do this, but we’re going to help you get through the difficulty. Like that’s noble, I think.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and there’s. Yeah and there’s. And I would just say that when it comes to helping people down the road, people who are pro-life would, you know, love to help someone with whatever they can i mean, that’s part of just doing what we’re called to do. And very often that sometimes might mean connecting someone with a community of people who they can then lean on and also eventually help others with, you know, being support eventually.
Ron Brown :
And that’s the most people like a lot of people these days, they don’t have a good community. Like if a woman in this church, our church were to become accidentally pregnant tomorrow and didn’t want to have, didn’t you wanted to have the baby but was just terrified because maybe she’s 20 and is nowhere near ready. Like she’s got a whole community of people here that are going to support her. And but like this church is a special place like the level of it’s like a big family like people like we spend 3 hours, 3 and a half hours together every Sunday because we do sermon then we talk and eat together for two hours like we actually genuinely know each other. But if you don’t have that good word.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and yeah, I would just say that every community, it’s just good to spend time and to know each other and it’s also good to ask for help instead of thinking like you know I have no other choice. I would just really you know hope that when someone’s in that situation they would think who could help me or who could I ask because just asking someone is a huge step towards finding that help. Just making someone else aware that there’s a need give that person an opportunity to respond positively or a helpful way. Absolutely, absolutely. There’s a lot of people who would love to help, and I’d like they’re just they just don’t know either it’s hard it’s hard to help someone when you’re not aware of how to help them.
Ron Brown :
Well, one of the most amazing things in my opinion about our church is that it’s almost like there’s this built in assumption that everyone in this building is broken in some way or other as agree and so I would be exhibit A and that but that.
Jacob Barr :
‘d be Exhibit B.
Ron Brown :
Like i don’t know i’ve been in this church now for like a year and a half close to me not almost. And I think in that time I’ve probably seen, I don’t know, five people break down into tears in the middle of a sermon. You know, this a sermon is given and it really touches a nerve with them and then they’ll like make a comment after during the question answer comment period and they will break down in tears like it doesn’t happen often, but it’ll happen a few times a year and they don’t lose face. Like, it’s like, you can do that here. You can feel very comfortable while you’re doing it because you know that, like, people are not going to think less of you they’re going to actually come talk to you after it and then check up on you later like, how you doing how’s the problem? Like you know from a month ago, it’s a really good thing.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I think a lot of that stems from the leadership providing examples of being vulnerable and sharing authentically with who they are, which allows other people to and not feel embarrassed when they also share authentically and show themselves as vulnerable. So I was on this. I was on the Planned Parenthood sidewalk 3 days ago, and there was a lady that came up with a sign saying I am Christian and I support safe abortion. And so I had a conversation with her. Well, I’d like to call it a conversation, but we may not have really hurt each other. Yeah, I’ll call it a conversation.
Ron Brown :
For argument you were talking at each other, not to each other.
Jacob Barr :
I would have, yeah, I and I would say I did i am thinking about some of the things that she said. However, I don’t know if she’s thinking about anything that I said didn’t feel like it i had penetrated her mind space very well. But one of the things that she said was, aren’t you happy that all aborted babies go to heaven? And it felt like the argument was.
Ron Brown :
Because they died innocently well, and they aren’t we doing a favor, We’re guaranteed.
Jacob Barr :
That was her argument in pro abortion was aren’t you glad that they’re going to heaven? And honestly i am glad that bored of babies go to heaven however, in Romans it says don’t sin or don’t excessively sin just so that you can have additional grace or you can, you know ask Jesus to forgive that sin too, because if you do sin. There’s grace and forgiveness for those who believe in Jesus. But at the same time we’re we we’re not supposed to go and just sin extra, you know, commit additional extra sins just because they can be forgiven. And I felt like that she was using, you know, what she was saying is don’t you think it’s OK to sin and kill these babies because they’re going to heaven and don’t you want them to go to heaven? And so i felt like it was a very twisted comment to make and I felt like it was intentionally, you know?
Ron Brown :
Well, I guess she’s trying to use your religious faith against you, I would say. You know, it is yeah, that argument actually like i got like, I could see that like, I could see I could have seen myself saying that as an atheist. So yeah, I don’t be grudger for that argument.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and I know that she was, you know, taking it and like, trying to like, you know, poke me right there in the side, trying to cause me just enough annoying pain.
Ron Brown :
And also, she was being kind of vindictive about it, like she wasn’t talking to you like we’re talking right now. He wasn’t.
Jacob Barr :
Friendly We didn’t know each other before and it was minute one. There was no common ground to be established at all. Zero common ground. If anything, I felt like she we were not of common ground because I felt like her sign was blatantly full of false beliefs, like it didn’t feel like it was genuine or being authentic i felt like it was designed to attack.
Ron Brown :
I don’t think I told you about this story, but I was in Seattle a few months ago i think you knew about that. Ok and so when I was there, I came across two Planned Parenthood kind of canvassers. One of them really annoyed me the other one I was totally fine with and bear in mind, it’s like, I’m pro-choice but I just don’t like propaganda and dishonesty, right? No matter what side and I actually, in a way, I hate it more when it’s on my side because it’s like, you’re making my side look bad now. So the one that I did, the one that I didn’t mind, was like her pitch to me and my friend as we walked by was do you have a minute to talk about how to, you know, protect our rights because she’s a woman. Right so I’m like, we were just like, Nah, we’re busy or whatever. But I got no problem with that i think, is an honest what?
Jacob Barr :
Was the argument again.
Ron Brown :
She just simply said, do you have a minute to talk about perhaps how to save our rights like.
Jacob Barr :
Save our rights.
Ron Brown :
Women’s rights again, like it was something roughly like that. The I had no problem with that. The one I had a problem with was the one where it’s like, do you have a minute to talk about saving our healthcare? I’m like, what are you, Bernie Sanders? You know what I mean like it’s like I even though I was pro-choice part of me actually wanted to say, like, I literally wanted to say this, yes, I’m all about from protecting the healthcare of the unborn how can you and I team up to save the unborn? Like, I just wanted to do that i wanted to respond with basically with like ducherie with ducherie, but i didn’t do it but I wanted to.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and I can and I would agree that you know, healthcare, it isn’t. To me choosing abortion would be more authentic to call it the opposite of healthcare than to call it healthcare. I would say that woman’s rights is closer to, you know, the woman’s right to.
Ron Brown :
Her own body.
Jacob Barr :
Well her body and the baby’s body but let’s just yeah I would I would say that that’s you know her right to legally. You know the legal right is more is more closer to truth. Yeah it’s.
Ron Brown :
More of a.
Jacob Barr :
Truthful way of calling it, whereas healthcare, usually healthcare says we’re going to save as many patients as possible. We’re going to not encourage any patient to do harm we’re not going to do any harm to any of our patients like that would be like the Hippocratic Oath of Christians is no longer practice because of abortion but the Hypocratic Oath is saying we’re not going to cause harm to our patients and so healthcare, I feel like should reflect the Hippocratic Oath but in reality, in today’s world, it doesn’t really reflect. It probably reflects money in many instances, more so than actually trying to help every patient within the under the authority of a certain doctor.
Ron Brown :
But i do think it’s very easily possible to make like a case for abortion that actually is quite on the whole humane like I think I’ve done that you might not agree that’s you probably don’t that’s why we’re that’s OK Yeah. Yeah but.
Jacob Barr :
Would you give me that T behind you? Oh, yeah thank you. Just wait for you guys, say you.
Ron Brown :
Is there any well, so I feel like we’re kind of just like it seems like it’s winding down, but is there anything you we haven’t said that yet that you think we should we’re talking about?
Jacob Barr :
Well you did mention you know the woman’s rights to her own body, right. And that’s a that’s a complicated thing because the can a can a woman have two hearts? Can a can a woman have, you know essentially when there’s a body inside of her body that has different DNA and in different organs, is that real i mean, it is. She is helping that body develop.
Ron Brown :
Yeah and then so the response to that by a pro-choice or would generally be, it’s like, look, you don’t have a right to commandeer my body sorry, my body, not yours you don’t have a right to siphon off resources for me if I don’t want you to. That’s what they would say and I do think that’s a fair argument.
Jacob Barr :
But yeah and in situations like that, maybe. Yeah, that’s it. That’s a really interesting yeah i would say, well, it’s still not right to kill. And it would also say in 99 % of the situations the woman had consensual A consensual relationship which resulted in her getting pregnant. And it’s not right to kill and it’s sort of part of all of this started off as a fetus and or all of this started off as you know, in that beginning as a zygote like a single cell, you know beginning. And all of us were in that growth stage to our current point. And for us to say what’s OK for you to kill someone else, I think is at some levels not really fair for us to say that about someone else when we here, we are enjoying air, enjoying many birthdays and we’re saying, well, someone else doesn’t have to have all you know, doesn’t have to have that opportunity because her mom has other priorities.
Ron Brown :
Even as a pro-choice or I’ve always respected those T-shirts that say something like it’s like you get it for like a baby and it says now that I’m alive, I’m pro-choice or not, that I’m out of the room, I’m pro-choice like it basically it points out exactly what you just said and I’m like, yeah, that’s a clever point but you always guess it was so usually it’s like, OK, this is like I think this conversation is its second to best case scenario is that one of us actually changed their’s mind. That’s best case. But like it’s second best we neither one of us have moved I don’t think but we’re fine with each other and that’s good that’s not you’re not going to find that on.
Jacob Barr :
Too much, Yeah so what’s the common ground that we have maybe that would be a because i know that we Yeah, here we are we’re talking about the differences and maybe trying to convince each other but.
Ron Brown :
Well, I think we both see the other person’s side as having validity to it, even if we ultimately it’s like it’s like it’s like if you value two things like that, like if you if we both value apples and oranges, but you value apples above oranges and I do the vice versa. Like it’s like we’re both still valuing the same thing it’s not like I think you have no point whatsoever it’s just like if you make me choose between apples and oranges, I have to make a choice and it’s a forced choice situation here. But it’s mostly going to say, gosh, yeah, go on.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I guess I would say that trying to trying to convince someone without knowing, you know, a lot of us have like these roots for why we believe something today and to come in and have a conversation, Well, first of all, I’d say yelling doesn’t help persuade people Listening and trying to genuinely understand where someone is really hard to do. But I think that’s a more reasonable approach to understanding how to help someone. You know, maybe, you know, understand where they stand and then they’re trying to understand that way they can, you know, persuade them in a way that’s positive and helpful in that belittling or yeah, just try to do it in a healthy or positive way. But and I think it’s really good for people to be able to talk about it because very often people will, you know, on topics like this, the conversation will not take place. And I feel like that’s almost like this is where conversation, really.
Ron Brown :
Needs to take place. Exactly. And among people that have relationships that go beyond the current disagreement, I remember what I was going to say so remember earlier I was alluding to, you know, like you do have a point about the issue of like, where’s the line of continuity why is it not OK to kill a toddler for some reasons, right, For example and so I guess it’s this is one of those things where like you have a position that you’re very committed to and so do I and both positions, like neither one of them needs you, requires you to be stupid or ignorant or evil to believe it like it’s not hard for either one of us to make a case for the other. But it’s like you can’t not to poorly chosen pun but we can’t really split this baby. Like you would not be happy if we said OK Like every time someone wants an abortion, we’ll flip a coin and if it’s heads, they get to have the abortion, if it’s tails, it doesn’t i wouldn’t be happy with that either. So how do we have a situation here where one of us doesn’t get everything we want and the other one gets teemordily nothing. Because that’s a dangerous situation that’s going to create resentment and hostility and hatred, which is bad for both of us. That’s where things like compromises come into place. Like that’s where I think like, you know, limiting abortions to early trimesters, the like the first or maybe, I don’t know, like certainly not late abortions unless it’s like safety of the mother or like safety of being with the infant is showing signs of like, you know, it won’t live long kind of thing. Because it’s like if I push for like abortion right up to the moment of birth, basically I’m showing you no respect at all i’m showing you no sympathy. I’m showing you that I don’t give a crap about how you feel at all. Well, how you going to feel about that?
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I would say that compromise, since we live in a world where some people on the scale of negative ten to positive ten or you, know that scale, we have people that would fit into all of those numbers yes. And especially, you know, especially in that middle zone of like negative five to positive five like that would be a very populated area for a large number of people in our country and then zero like right in the middle where they’re you.
Ron Brown :
Know undecided just completely.
Jacob Barr :
Undecided, but maybe, you know, maybe like that would be the person that would say it’s OK in the case of rape and incest, but I’m against other abortions.
Ron Brown :
That are past like.
Jacob Barr :
Six weeks or 10 weeks?
Ron Brown :
Yeah, I would i would still i would put them on the pro-life side more just to get this, yeah.
Jacob Barr :
Because to me, I would put that, I would put that more in the middle because they’re supporting abortion because someone was a few weeks earlier, like what if I said, Ron, you know, i’m OK with someone, you know, protecting your life today, but a few weeks earlier, I don’t know, like that wouldn’t make any sense like that. I think intellectually that’s dishonest is to say, well, you’re now old enough to be protected like how is someone different just because they’re five weeks earlier like that’s sort of, to me that feels very intellectually.
Ron Brown :
Well, so I guess you’re common, you’re kind of commenting on my whole like you know what’s limited to a certain stage of the pregnancy. The thing is, yeah, I realized that that’s one of those things where it’s like it is not perfectly consistent with my position and it’s also not perfectly consistent with yours. Our positions are unreconcilable I think. And so I’m willing to like have a suboptimal solution for myself, because I know that I have to cooperate with you.
Jacob Barr :
Well and I and that’s why I believe compromise is important it’s essentially I would say compromise is important because if we can save more lives by compromising than by not then we should compromise and save the most number of lives. However, I was also say it’s I’m also not going to be settled or feeling like we’re, you know, the conversation is done because I feel like there’s more to do. So like let’s say you know, I’m trying to buy a car and I, you know, I’m trying to get the price lower. And so you’re telling a car for, you know, 100$ that’s a terrible car. And I go to you and say how about 50? And then yeah, you say, all right, what if we cut it in the middle 75 Well, then I might say, well, let’s yeah, I might i’m going to keep pushing it lower you’re going to keep pushing it higher. But in the end, we’re essentially revisiting this car being sold back and forth i think when it comes to making laws and trying to negotiate it closer to the direction that we want it to be, and it’s a lot different than money like 100 bucks is no big deal but we’re talking about lives you’re talking about a lot of lives that are in every single community, every single state across our country. And our country really makes up a small amount of the abortions that take place globally like, you know, there’s China and India and there’s some places that have just horrific abortion situations where there’s a lot of forced abortion. People choose, they choose abortion based on the sex of the baby because if it’s a girl, you know, a Chinese family will often choose abortion because they want the family name to continue. Or India, if it’s a girl, they’ll choose abortion because it’s almost like getting a debt. Whereas if they have a boy, a boy, and when the boy and a girl get married, the boy’s family gets a dowory, which makes it so it’s almost like winning the lottery because they get money.
Ron Brown :
Gosh, I wouldn’t be surprised if that dynamic flips like if india and China, just not to be crude but just turn into these massive sausage fests every time there’s a young marriageable girl every guy in town is going to be Switzerman he’s a lot more boys. Yeah, girls, because, yeah, that then you’ll you’ll have boys and their parents like trying to like, you know, buy you know, like somehow make themselves rise above their competitors.
Jacob Barr :
Together and I would think that represents common ground for someone in the US who like I would think that anyone who’s pro-choice in that in America would say picking someone based on their gender or you know, their sex would be horrific i think we could all find a common ground there that, you know, that would be a terrible reason to choose abortion just based on the fact that someone’s a girl or a boy. You know, making let in that decision, decide whether or not that person should continue or whether or not they want to try and get pregnant again to get the desired.
Ron Brown :
Sex like, I think a lot i think a lot of pro-choice people would still be fine with it. And yeah, I’m not saying all of them, but I think a lot of them still would be and like because it’s like all the same.
Jacob Barr :
That they would i don’t think that would be that sexist at the very definition, like, I don’t think you can be any more sexist.
Ron Brown :
Yeah, i think they would rationalize it away somehow, which is that’s a good point, though, because people who are pro-choice are disproportionately feminist. And so you’d think they yeah like from that line of thinking, yeah, you yeah, you would yeah, that that’s not a bad point.
Jacob Barr :
Or yeah, and then?
Ron Brown :
Somebody angle.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and I would say, you know, having preference over women or men is not desire, but treating them both as remarkable options and not letting you know, letting that whether someone’s a boy or you know, as a parent, you know, if we have a, if I have a boy or a girl, in the end I just, I just hope that my child will have opportunities in the future and you know, it’s not a matter of, you know, boiling them down to demographic. It’s a matter of like they have a future and they have life and I’m just excited to be a part of it, Yeah. But to boil it down to demographic feels demeaning and sort of, I don’t know, just not good.
Ron Brown :
Fair enough well, that’s very consistent with your world view, and your world view was completely defensible so, fair enough, but.
Jacob Barr :
Well, yeah, I think this is a good conversation.
Ron Brown :
Yeah, I agree yeah.
Jacob Barr :
I appreciate you coming on here and having this yeah for both of us to be able to talk about things and.
Ron Brown :
It’s i definitely will post this on my YouTube channel too. I think it was really useful.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah and i’ll look forward to reading some of the comments that people share i think it’d be interesting to hear what they say i’ll get some push back on both sides I would expect i’m not sure what your audience looks like, but.
Ron Brown :
Yeah, I’m still learning them i think I might title the video something like pro-choice or In pro-life or own each other repeatedly.
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