Listen to Father Frank Pavone and Jacob Barr talk about controversial signage on the sidewalk, the spiritual battlefield based on Ephesians and the importance of voting in November.
Summary
This is Jacob Barr, and I’m excited to share my experience hosting Fr. Frank Pavone on the Pro-Life Team Podcast. Fr. Frank, a dedicated advocate for the unborn, delved into the spiritual aspects of the pro-life battle, emphasizing the importance of scripture in our efforts. We discussed the pivotal role of Ephesians 6:12 in understanding our struggle against the spiritual forces advocating for abortion.
Fr. Frank highlighted the spiritual battle between life and death, drawing parallels with biblical narratives of Lucifer’s arrogance and Jesus’ humility. This contrast, he explained, mirrors the battle between pro-life and pro-abortion mindsets. The discussion also touched upon how the word of God provides hope and strength to those affected by abortion, and the power of scripture in changing hearts and minds.
We ventured into the practical aspects of pro-life activism, discussing the impact of using graphic images of abortion in public spaces and on the sidewalk of abortion clinics. Fr. Frank argued that exposing the harsh reality of abortion could be a powerful tool in changing perceptions and saving lives, despite its controversial nature.
We also addressed engaging with Planned Parenthood escorts and tactics to peacefully and effectively minister in front of abortion facilities. Fr. Frank emphasized the importance of videotaping interactions for safety and legal reasons, and he shared strategies for maintaining a peaceful presence.
In light of the recent Dobbs decision, we discussed the heightened significance of elections in shaping abortion policies. Fr. Frank urged listeners to view voting as an act of love for neighbor and God, emphasizing the duty to elect leaders who will uphold the sanctity of life.
Finally, in a lighter moment, Fr. Frank shared his passion for roller coasters, a personal hobby that brings him joy and excitement, much like his involvement in the dynamic and challenging pro-life movement.
#ProLifeTeamPodcast #JacobBarr #FrFrankPavone #ProLifeMovement #SpiritualBattle #Ephesians612 #ScriptureInActivism #AbortionReality #ProLifeActivism #PlannedParenthood #PeacefulMinistry #DobbsDecision #VotingAsLove #ElectionsAndLife #RollerCoasters #LifeIsARollerCoaster
Transcript
The transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Welcome to the pro-life Team Podcast. The pro-life battle is a spiritual battle it’s rooted in the word of God, And the word of God tells us the attitudes we need to have as we fight this battle with love. But as we fight it, also with clear determination to expose the truth, we’re going to talk about some of the tactics, some of the behaviors that we should or shouldn’t do, and some of the ways that are voting can impact this crucial issue.
Jacob Barr :
So Father Frank, I’m excited to have you on the pro-life Team Podcast. So many people who are listening will know who you are but for those who don’t, Father Frank is He is devoted to saving children of God who are in the womb, who are bearing God’s image and he is. He has devoted his work and his efforts to this goal of making abortion unthinkable and towards the goal of giving a voice to those who don’t have one and so, Father Frank, I’m excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you for what you do and for being here to talk about things.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Well, it’s always good to talk with you, Jacob, and your audience. You know, it’s a, it’s a it’s a great time for the pro-life movement and it’s always been such a fundamental issue. And I know I’m sure we’ve gotten many listeners that are equally committed to this cause and eager to make progress so it’s a pleasure to have this conversation awesome.
Jacob Barr :
So I’m going to read a passage out of Ephesians and I’d like to talk to you about how what your thoughts are on it. So yeah, this is Ephesians six twelve for our struggles for our. Struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this Dark World and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms that’s verse. Verses, yes, verse 12. And then the contrast or bring that into the next part, which is out of verses 17 to 20 it says take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God and pray in the spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests actually, and just focusing on those. So if it sounds like this, the sword is God’s word and we’re fighting against these authorities. What are your thoughts on this passage and how it can, how we can use God’s word to engage people in our pro-life work, in our communities, maybe, and also on the sidewalk of a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
You well, you know, the battle over abortion, I mean, it’s a battle of life against death abortion is death it’s killing. There’s a living being there it’s a human being. Abortion kills that human being. And those that are promoting abortion, even though many of them don’t like to say they are pro abortion, at the very least it’s undeniable that that’s in fact the effect of the stance they take. If they end up trying to convince people that abortion is OK, or if they try to stop us from trying to stop it, or if they elect people that are going to continue it or expand it, they are indeed acting in a pro abortion way. Pro abortion is pro death. Now, who else is pro death? When it comes to the bigger spiritual picture, well, we know that there’s a battle between God and the Devil not that they’re on an equal playing field. They’re not god wins by definition. He’s God, so he’s the almighty. Nobody can win against God, but the devil nevertheless tries. He’s a spirit that has rejected God. There are other evil spirits along with him god’s word makes this clear and so does the experience of many human beings, the word that we just heard the passage you read from Ephesians is talking about this battle. It is ultimately a battle between life and death and what constitutes it what’s this battle made of? We read in a couple of other passages in scripture we look at. For example, let me just trace this out isaiah 14 and Revelation 12 and Isaiah 14 and also Philippians 2 these are three scriptures that we’re going to kind of merge together. In Isaiah, the prophet is speaking against the king of Babylon, and as the prophets often did, he’s chiding the king for his arrogance. And he says to the he actually calls the king Lucifer. Now scripture can be seen on these two different levels. You know these passages are usually addressing a concrete historical circumstance of their time. But then the word contains A significance, a spiritual meaning that goes across the centuries and goes beyond the specific circumstances in which it was written. So in this passage, Isaiah calls the king Lucifer, and he says you’re arrogant and then he goes to describe this arrogant mindset. He says, well, you said I will be like God, I will ascend to the throne and I assert myself, OK, so this historically is against the King’s arrogance, but spiritually something that crosses the ages is that’s the thinking of the real Lucifer, the devil, that he wants to be like God. And we see this then in Revelation 12, it says war broke out in heaven. The devil and his angels battled against God they wanted to take the place of God, and the faithful angels who were on God’s side were led by Michael, and that name itself is a battle cry saying who is like God it’s like you can’t ascend to the throne by your own choice. Who is like God nobody rev. So while that war and the passage from Isaiah shows us the thinking of the evil 1 to assert yourself to take the place of God, Philippians 2 shows the thinking of the Holy One because Jesus, whom the passage says was equal to God, did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, but rather he took the opposite approach. He says he emptied himself taking the form of a slave so it’s referring obviously to his becoming human, his incarnation. And he went even further, obediently accepting even death on a cross. And then Paul goes on to say because of this God the Father highly exalted him. So it reminds us of what Jesus said he who humbles himself will be exalted. He who exalts himself will be humbled. So the this is this constant battle between Satan and God. And the devil hates God and he knows he can’t destroy God. So he tries to do what he considers the next best thing and that is destroy what is made in the image of God, human life. By destroying human life the devil is attacking God because we are his image. How does he accomplish that? The attitude behind abortion is this same kind of self exaltation that we see in these passages in Isaiah, in Revelation, and we see the opposite of it in Philippians either i’m going to say I’m going to be like God through my own choice, or I’m going to say I’m going to humble myself before God and he will make me like himself by his choice. That’s the spiritual battle when it comes to the abortion issue, and it’s part of the whole larger eternal spiritual battle that we find ourselves in.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and it and it seems like if someone sits on the sideline and essentially is not doing something you know for or against, you know in this in this battle. What are your thoughts on someone who is choosing to do nothing in this space like how would you encourage them to get involved or what are they empowering by not getting involved?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Well, the Lord knew what He was doing when He when He made us and when He put us in the specific time and place of history that He put us in. So and he gave us all certain talents, certain opportunities and a certain understanding about things going on. And of course his word tells us in so many different places, including the passage you read from Ephesians, get involved in the battle put on paul is saying put on the armor of God because you are in the battle. You know, in a sense, it’s not a battle that simply we decide to join it’s a battle that enjoins us whether we like it or not because evil is floating around us it wants to consume us it wants us to do its bidding. And God wants us to serve him because he knows that’s how we’re going to be happy. We should have No Fear of the battle god has equipped us for it. And we have to understand this is what love means if we’re called to love our neighbor and love God and our neighbor, well then being involved in the battle for truth, for goodness, for justice, for the protection of life. This is how we carry out that love. The motivation, therefore, for being involved is simply wanting to follow the commandment of love itself love is not some kind of a vague thing it has a specific content. It means we do specific things to help our neighbors and life is full of opportunities each day to do that whether it’s, you know, the traditional spiritual and corporal works of mercy, you know, instructing people and things they do not yet know, sharing the truth about God, about our faith, about justice and the demands of justice and the sanctity of life. All of this is part of the battle, as well as the physical opportunities to save people’s lives or to feed the poor, comfort those who are lonely, all the good works that we’re called to be involved in. It’s not simply doing good works, it’s the battle between advancing good or advancing.
Jacob Barr :
So going back to the, yeah, the script, the scripture, the scripture in Ephesians, how have you seen God’s word act like a sword when battling for life, when engaging? Where, have you seen how? How have you seen that take place?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Well, we see it first of all in the actual rescuing of people from abortion and the, you know, when we talk to those who feel like they need to have an abortion, very often they feel alone. And the four words taken from the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, that God speaks to us, and they really summarize the gospel beautifully, are the words I am with you. God breaks through that isolation and that loneliness and so many times, whether it’s standing in front of an abortion facility or in a pregnancy center, in the counseling room or just people talking to a friend or a relative about abortion, those who feel they have to do it feel so isolated. And the word of God that says I am with you, not just that God is with them, but that we, the people of God, are with them, has time and time again, I’ve seen it before, my very eyes and all those settings, and it’s happening every day in all those settings that people are awakened and enlivened and find New Hope when they realize they’re not alone, when they realize there are other people that care for them and that there’s a God who cares for them. So that’s one thing. Now those same words help people who are in despair because they had and abortion in the past. And this is where our campaign called silent no more comes in because for 20 years now, Priests for Life in conjunction with Anglicans for Life has had this campaign where those who have had abortions and have found the forgiveness that comes in Christ are speaking up about that experience, are speaking up about being rescued from that despair. And again, we see it in all these contexts it might be in just a communication between friends or it might be in the announcement and the IT might be in the preaching that takes place in parishes. You know, as somebody who’s been doing this pro-life ministry full time for 30 years now, I’ve preached in so many hundreds of parishes around the country, specifically on abortion. And I’ve seen in the course of the homily people in the congregation get transformed and especially in this manner here of having perhaps been in despair over their own abortion, have found through the preaching of a scripture or homily that discovery that there is mercy that they didn’t think was there. And that’s one of the most beautiful things to see. I’ve been also had a front row seat in some dramatic conversions. I was spiritual guide to Norma Mccorvey, the Jane Rowe of Roe V Wade, Doctor Bernard Nathanson, the architect of the abortion movement in America i accompanied both of them on their journeys to a pro-life position and more recently in the history of the movement, People like Abby Johnson. You know, I was one of her spiritual guides as well and one of the first people she turned to when she was convinced she had to come out of the abortion industry. So the word, it’s the word of God in all these circumstances and these people will tell you that word is what inspires them to have hope first of all to enlighten them that choosing life is the right thing, not choosing death. And secondly, to have hope, even after they have chosen death in the past, that there can be new life for.
Jacob Barr :
Them yeah speaking of Speaking of Abby, it seems like her story, her. You know how she experienced abortion first hand by being brought into that abortion room and being asked to hold the ultrasound wand as she could observe the monitor. It just seems like I can imagine someone who is, you know, well like her who might be, you know, she was working for Planned Parenthood at that point but someone who is supportive of Planned Parenthood or is someone who is sitting on the sidelines and not trying to get engaged in this controversial topic. If either one of those people were to have the experience like Abby did of being in that abortion clinic room and being able to personally observe what is taking place in the you know in the and just the complete that scenario, I think it would be life changing to a lot of people and very few people have been in that in that space. You know many of us have not been there who have not seen that. What are your thoughts on, you know, how impactful that might be like the universal truth of a just simply observing what is happening, happening and seeing that baby respond to the instruments and so on.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
You know, it is the most impactful thing, and we can think of it, first of all, in the very broad terms, well beyond the abortion issue, any kind of act of violence continues in our society to the extent that it’s hidden. People don’t see the victims and the big evils that our society has fallen into in the past slavery and segregation being 2 two big examples. The perpetrators got away with this because the victims were largely hidden and that’s why the fighters for example against the slave trade. William Wilberforce for example people can re read his story and you know the book and the movie Amazing Grace. What did he and his collaborators do? They did what Saint Paul talks to us in the chapter just before we read from a moment ago it’s Ephesians 5, he says don’t have anything to do with the fruitless works of darkness, but rather expose them. So we bring these works of darkness and violence to the light of day. And that’s what Wilberforce and his companions did they would draw pictures of, well, slave because slave trade that can be an abstract concept. But when they drew pictures of how the slaves were pushed into these ships, you know, the inhumane way in which they’re just crowded in there and they posted these pictures all over town. People started to put a picture to the words, oh, slave trade, that’s not a good thing. Or when Wilberforce took out the shackles and you know, showed them to his friends and said this is what we’re talking about, there’s nothing like it. The same thing with Martin Luther King junior and the fight against segregation. They when the peaceful demonstrators for calling for equality for the black community were attacked, the first thing that their attackers attacked were the cameras, because they didn’t want people to see what was about to happen to these peaceful protesters. They didn’t want them to see the face of this, of this evil of segregation. And then when Emmett Till, the young teen black teenager, was killed in an overt act of racism, his mother said i want there to be an, oh, I want it to be an open casket funeral because I want people to see what they did to my boy. This is the whole i mean, it’s really common sense you want to save a victim. You expose the violence you expose the violence by showing the pictures, showing the videos, showing the images of what this violence does to the victim. Now when it comes to abortion, yeah, ironically, I mean some get it in the movement. And some have been showing these pictures and Abby’s experience and the movie that came out subsequently not only shows the reality but shows the impact of the reality on her who saw it and some and yet some don’t get it and we have we have some within our movement who are steadfastly opposed or at the very least they’re hesitant. To implement this time tested tactic of simply showing the victim and it’s not always clear why there are some in our movement who are who are so opposed to this because I mean it’s so consistent with history, it’s so consistent with the experience and so many people. If you ask many of the current pro-life leaders and activists, those who are really, you know, devoting significant time and energy to fighting abortion, ask them how did they get involved why, what was the spark that got them so active. And for the majority of these people, some part of that journey, some part of that awakening was seeing the victims, whether it was a picture of, you know, aborted babies, a video. There have been certain key videos along the history of our movement like The silent Scream by Doctor Nathanson, Eclipse of Reason, Hard Truth by my friend Greg Cunningham, and other movies and films. This has been a significant portion of awakening a lot of people, not only converting people from pro abortion to pro-life but taking pro-life people and converting them to a deeper level of activism and engagement. It’s clear it’s out there. It’s part of Abby’s story and part of the story of many in the.
Jacob Barr :
Movie. Yeah and my well, I guess my viewpoint on using the pictures of aborted babies. It seems to create good conversations on a college campus. I don’t. I think when someone uses those pictures on a abortion clinic sidewalk, it seems to be a different result like it seems to mark the people on the sidewalk maybe as like the opposition more so than like a loving, caring group. What are your thoughts about using those pictures on the sidewalk do you think that I mean, and maybe it’s. Yeah, i seem to, of course some of the things that I would normally want to see on the sidewalk are they seem to be sometimes less effective as the opposition ramps up escorts and they ramp up their ability to, yeah, usher people in and avoid conversations.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Well, you know, on whether it’s on the sidewalk or on the campus, a lot of it has to do with the demeanor of the people that are holding the signs. And there’s a lot of elements that work together to create an impression. For example, a lot of those that I work with in the movement who put up these public displays will do it in a very thoughtful way you know, first of all, the question of where is it that we are state where are we stationing ourselves? You know, you don’t want to put yourself next to an elementary school or a children’s park or whatnot. And then wherever it is that you are positioning yourself, you know, the people I work with, they put warning signs several blocks ahead so if people are driving along or walking along and they’re about to come near one of these displays, they’ll be warned. Hey, listen, warning, graphic pictures ahead. You might want to, you know, avert your eyes or take a different route, such and such. Now I’ve stood in front of abortion facilities holding these signs and I’ve had people that were coming in there for their appointments stop in their tracks when they saw the sign and say, oh, i don’t want to do that to my baby is that what abortion is? So they don’t know and very often that’s the one thing that awakens them it goes, you know, it goes beyond words it cuts through rhetoric. I’ve seen, I’ve seen it for myself it’s stopping people also just on the public sidewalk, like we did a demonstration i remember one of the demonstrations we did in New York City, and we’re just in a general public sidewalk holding the signs. And yeah, we had young women coming up to us and say, Oh my gosh, that’s terrible i would never do that to the to my baby i would never, oh boy, you know, is that what abortion is? So the word itself has lost its meaning for a lot of people. And the pictures, actually a lot of people will react less angrily towards the pictures then they would towards a sign, for example, that says abortion kills children. And that might be counterintuitive people might think, well, wait a minute, you know, the pictures going to get them more angry than the words. But it’s the other way around for this reason that if you hold a sign that says abortion kills children and you know, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either the life chain does that we just had the national life chain at the beginning of October. But when people see that, it’s like you’re telling them a conclusion. When you show the picture, you’re showing the evidence that compels the conclusion. So people are, in a sense, they might be more horrified, but they’re less threatened. It’s like, OK, this is the evidence of what it is. Now I’ve got to come to my own conclusion yeah, that pretty much looks like abortion kills children, you know? But you’re not telling them the conclusion you’re just giving them the evidence. But you know it depends also on the behavior of the person who’s holding the sign or what they might be saying you know you don’t have to be out there giving the impression that you’re angry or judgmental. You can be holding one of these pictures and be very gentle and kind and say to people, convey to people, hey everybody, listen, I we’re just trying to educate the public. We’re just trying to help people and it can be received in that way too, even though it’s very disturbing.
Jacob Barr :
Well, and I feel like it’s important to use the imagery or the words or the demeanor that will prevent people from entering that building where lives are ended. And if the approach of showing the evidence works better or as good as using certain words or certain you know, essentially I feel like we’re trying to tell it’s like the equivalent of telling the Jews to not enter this building because this is where they’re killing the Jews or we’re telling, you know, people to not. Yeah essentially, we’re telling people to not enter this building because the life with the life within them is the, you know, is an image bearer of God and they’re going to have trauma after making this decision. And they do have other choices that are life giving and healthy and holistic and that they will enjoy for generations and but yeah, in the end, I feel like, yeah, And those images are very hard to look at it i know for myself it’s hard to look at them. But you’re right they have a truth, a universal truth that is present. And I don’t want young children or, you know, I’m not trying to cause trauma to someone who’s not walking in to Planned Parenthood or I’m not trying to try to cause trauma to someone who is, you know, of a younger age. And I like the idea of the warning labels and really, I guess Planned Parenthood, Julie, should come with a physical warning label of, you know, Yeah. Like, that actually is what they really need because it’s, yeah, it’s probably more true for them than it would be for a pack of cigarettes it’s more true for them than a lot of things that might have warning labels. You know, I think of like kids, toys, having choking, you know, labels and cigarettes it might cause cancer, something in California, all sorts of things cause cancer. You know, Planned Parenthood, you know, in the lives of some percentage of the people that enter the building like it’s very intense.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
You know, and then that ties in with what was saying before about our Silent No More campaign so many of these moms that have had abortions and they give their testimonies through Silent No More are saying I was never told by Planned Parenthood that it would cause me this kind of distress, that it would cause me infertility, that would cause me infection. That it would it would do all the damage it did whether it’s physical or psychological. They keep saying it’s a constant refrain of the testimonies and our audience can find these testimonies at abortiontestimonies.com we’ve got them all it’s like a library and you read through them and or watch the videos and you see this constant refrain nobody told me oh, why not i mean why if they believe, they say they believe in women’s choice, don’t you believe she should know what she’s choosing to know what you’re choosing doesn’t take away your choice, it enhances your choice. If you what you know makes you more want to choose it, well then you’re choosing it with more gusto. If what you learn makes you not want to choose it, well that’s actually ennobling your choice because it’s truly your choice based on your knowledge. And yet we see the opposite behavior from the other side. It’s like they’re ashamed of what they’re offering. And I often use the example that if I stood on the sidewalk holding one of those signs showing an abortion if I weren’t dressed like this, which pretty much tips people off that I’m that I’m pro-life although there are pro abortion clergy. But let’s say I was just dressed in usual normal clothes and I weren’t saying anything and I weren’t handing out any Flyers and there was no words on the sign. I’m just an ordinary person standing with a sign showing an aborted baby. What would people think I was doing? Would I, would they think I was against abortion or would they think I was for it? Would they think that by holding that sign and again, I’m not giving them any clue about my position. Would they think that I was trying to stop it or that I was trying to sell it? Hey, everybody, look, here’s what you can get down, right down the street, you know, third, the third door on the left you know, you can get your abortion. Is that how I would advertise an abortion? And obviously, everybody who sees me doing that is going to know that I’m there protesting it why? Because you just look at it and you see how terrible it is. And that’s why the other side doesn’t want to show it. They don’t even want to describe it. And also we talk about the politicians here, they don’t want to describe it either we’re in, you know, we’re in election season and we got a lot of pro abortion politicians out there. But you know what you’ll never hear them describe what they’re defending they’ll defend abortion and some of them will defend it, you know, without any restrictions or conditions or limitations. And yet if you ask them, well, Sir or ma’am, how’s an abortion done? Could you please describe the procedure? You know, you don’t have to have any expertise in it just tell me what’s in the medical textbook or tell me what you mean by the word. They are unwilling to do that because they know as soon as they describe it. Use the words from the medical textbooks talk about arms and legs and decapitation and dismemberment they actually use those words. Then they, if they describe it, the people who are listening are going to say this is not good, this is not something that we want, this is not something that should be permitted. And that, you know, that’s a pretty good evidence of who’s right and who’s wrong in this whole debate. You know, if they’re the ones that are pushing it and selling it and defending it, but they’re not even willing to describe it, something’s wrong with that picture and they’re really bottom line is their behavior. Whatever their words are, their behavior is showing, but they’re actually ashamed of it wow.
Jacob Barr :
Well, I gotta say, I’ve been very timid at using aggressive or some of these bloodier photos but I think you’ve made a really good case and I think I am. Yeah i’m persuaded to yeah to try using these and even though it’s hard and it feels you know, it’s not easy to hold a sign like that it’s not easy to hold up a sign but really the clear, you know, the clear opposition, not opposition, but the clear alternative is it’s good to look as it’s good to be identified as a clear alternative. The number one competitor to John Deere is not green. The number one competitor to John Deere is, I believe, orange and so red or blue, but they’re not green because it’s good to be seen as a different group. And I think very often we think if we can somehow get closer to the client or the patient, the person walking in by resembling the people that are there, we might be able to get our voice heard. But at the same time, if we can be seen as a clear alternative that is caring and it’s not up to us. You know, if they mark us as the enemy, that’s on them to be marking us as the enemy it’s not really up to us, but showing universal truths, showing the results, showing what really happens in an abortion, being able to clearly articulate, you know, the reasons why abortion harms babies and women and men all, everyone involved. And it’s going to come across as very, you know, very much against the information that Planned Parenthood is putting out so I really appreciate your articulate way of describing how that can, you know, be held with love. And to me, I’ve often look at those pictures as being marked as hate like when it comes to like the bloodiness, it just feels very hateful. But the but it’s true and it doesn’t have a posture or a word it’s just simply the result of abortion like a medical book looks very hateful because it’s such a violent act and it’s hard to hold that while trying to be postured with love like it’s a really hard thing to hold that up but I think what you’re saying is this is true, and I’m sorry it’s true and I’m sorry and having the warning label is amazing because it’s like I have to present you something that’s really hard, but you’re about to walk into, you know, a slaughterhouse and this is, I mean, it’s we don’t want to use that word i don’t want to be so abrasive but this is what it is. There’s no other way to frame it.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
It’s what it is exactly, you know sometimes what you were just saying reminds me of the instances where some of our members of Silent no more, who themselves have lived with and continue to live with the guilt of an abortion, have themselves used these signs to persuade others now obviously they have the greatest compassion for the people that feel they have to do this because they did it themselves. And yet they are doing that in just complete solidarity with these women and women and so many of them are saying, you know, I wish, I wish someone had shown me ahead of time what this was or at least told me the truth about what this was. But now I have to live with the consequences so, and as far as you know, as far as the other side hating us, I mean look what they did now post the Dobbs decision, right dobbs decision comes out even when the leak came out in May and it was like they go attack the pregnancy centers and they’re still attacking them and they want to attack them illegally too and some of these Democrat lawmakers, they want to try to shut down these clinics. Well, wait a minute i mean it’s hard to find a more compassionate group of people that are sitting down every day with, you know, moms, dads, grandparents, people who feel that they have to have an abortion and they’re giving them all this loving care. And these clinics are these pregnancy centers some of them are medical a lot of them are medical clinics, too. They are filled with beautiful baby clothes and diapers and formula and parenting classes. These are just people so filled with love, and yet they’re branded as the enemy, the other side. Here’s what we have to understand about the battle between pro-life and pro, pro-choice The other side doesn’t care what we do, how we look, how we sound, what we say, what we don’t say, what we do, how we dress. They really don’t care. We are the enemy. They don’t make a distinction between, well, you know, this group is doing the legal work this group is doing, the pregnancy centers, this group is protesting, this other group is doing whatever they do, but they don’t care. We’re all against abortion and therefore we are all and always the enemy to them because everything we do in the pro-life movement, even the gentle and just loving work that these pregnancy centers do, in the end, the reason they hate us on the other side is that this is taking away business from the abortion industry we think of it very often in terms of philosophy or morality. They’re looking at it as a business abortion is a business and every time we save a life, whether it is through holding one of those signs or sitting down in a counseling room in a pregnancy center, boils down to the same thing. We’d save a life. They’re deprived of business, they are deprived of money and they’re deprived of power. So this is this is at the heart of the of the battle.
Jacob Barr :
Wow so when it comes to the when it comes to the sidewalk, how would you suggest ministering to an escort who might have an umbrella might be a team of escorts. How would you suggest engaging with Planned Parenthood escorts in a way where, you know, maybe they’re told not to engage, maybe they’re told, maybe they’re OK engaging, but what might we say or how might we use God’s word how might we use praise songs or you know, worship music that’s sort of also a battle, you know, a battle cry or using music as part of this spiritual conflict on this sidewalk area how might we use our tools and thoughts and ideas to engage the escort more so in this case because we’re the escorts are there the entire time while clients become every, let’s say every 15 minutes. So we’ve got 14 minutes with that escort without the clients engagement piece playing in.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
That’s right yeah, that’s a good observation, a good question i’ve prayed in front of almost all the abortion mills in the country over these 30 years and seen a lot of different scenarios with these escorts or death squirts as we call them. Probably the most common and most well advised way to deal with these people is to simply do what you’re there to do. And do it the way you would do it if those people weren’t even there. Because the best way we show our attitude is to simply be who we are. Let me illustrate this very concretely. So I go to a place that’s often done to lead a prayer vigil. And let’s say there’s a whole team of these escorts there maybe there’s a dozen of them they’re standing there. They’re ready let’s say it’s right at the beginning of the appointment time, the place just opened they’re ready to literally they descend upon this mom who’s going there for the abortion they surround her so that we can’t hand her literature. They try to distract her from anything we’re saying, OK, but before the these clients arrive, like you say, we have more time to talk to these escorts. I’ll start off by saying not necessarily addressing them directly, but I’ll say in the opening remarks and the opening prayer that we come in peace. We come to this place out of love. We come here out of concern. We come here in solidarity with the moms, the dads, the grandparents that are coming in here, and we simply want to help them. We stand in solidarity with them and with their baby. And I say in my remarks, you know, we come with hatred for none and with love for all, including the people that run the facility. Now I’m not talking necessarily directly to these people, these escorts, but they know I’m talking about them. We come with hatred towards none we even have a concern for those who help to run these facilities and so forth. And we pray that they may see the truth about what they’re doing and about what we’re doing and so forth. One of the things i do. Besides, of course, there’s the reading of scripture. There’s the praying the music, peaceful music, prayerful music, all the worship music is all can all be very impactful on these folks. But also simply, as we were saying before, they’re in such a culture of denial, not even wanting to describe what they defend, that what I will sometimes do then, in their presence is make sure they hear the descriptions of what abortion is because they may never have heard it before. I mean, when they go for their escort training, they’re not going to sit there and read to them from the medical textbook of how abortions are done. So I make sure I want to make sure while I’m there that they’re hearing this. And then another thing that I’ll do in praying in front of these places and make sure these escorts hear it is I’ll read a litany of names of moms that have been killed by their abortion. So we’ve got these names, We have a list of them on our Priests for Life website, priests for life dot org slash women killed. And they’re all documented cases of people who, because of various forms of malpractice, negligence on the part of the abortionists or just the inherent dangers of the procedure, went into those abortion facilities but never came out alive. We’ll read their names and we’ll commend them to the Lord and we’ll ask, you know, Lord, let these let these moms, you know, never be forgotten. And I think that this too you know has an impact on these people that are standing there and leading women in now that’s about, I think that’s the best advice i mean will some of them want to engage in conversation every once in a while maybe somebody you know maybe after the mornings appointments have finished or if you’re there early enough when they’re not too many people around and you have to also see what their what their body language is and what their demeanor is some of them sometimes are willing to have a civil conversation, but pro-life people shouldn’t go there expecting that that’s going to be the attitude of most of them, because it won’t.
Jacob Barr :
Be Oh, that’s really good i really like that advice of reaching out to that person is if the escorts were not there like that i think that actually is that that’s the way to do it like that makes a lot of sense because essentially if you interact with the escorts while reaching out, if the escorts are going to derail or they will.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Yeah, you’ll inflamed them. Yeah, you’ll inflamed them and you know, a lot of times that the tensions get even high. Tensions are high already and you know, it devolves into shouting matches and angry words and you know the attention if the tensions escalate, you know then you know you get a you get a client that arrives. And that’s where, you know, there can end up being physical altercations too, because they’re running. They’re running to surround that young mother. And we’re trying to get to the literature and whatnot and then it’s so easy then for there to be, you know, physical encounters and whatnot and it can get very messy. One of the pieces of advice we always give too is that whoever’s coming out there to pray, first of all, don’t go alone always have at least one other person with you have a witness and secondly, videotape everything that’s going on now that used to be a harder thing to do than it is now, but now everybody’s got the, you know, the phones, you can turn on the video it’s so simple, and it’s so wise too, that everything be captured on video. If you have a group, let’s say I come out with a group of four or five people to pray or to counsel, have one person designated that that’s the only thing they do, Videotape everything, make sure they got a good charge on the battery and just capture everything.
Jacob Barr :
Wow that is. That’s a really smart idea to have someone focused on videotaping while someone else is focused on reaching out and then having prayer support makes it makes it work. Yeah, wow that’s.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Yeah, and don’t and we’re not. We’re not talking about videotaping it secretly, either. You want people to see that you’re videotaping and because that’s going to, they know what that means that means if there’s someone calls the police and they try to make a claim, you shoved me, you know, all you have to do is turn on the video no, I didn’t Take a look you know and everybody knows that with videotapes going, you’re not going to be able to deny that you did something you did and you’re going to be safe from being accused of doing something that you didn’t. So let them not only videotape it, let it be very clearly seen by everybody that you’re videotaping it.
Jacob Barr :
Oh, that’s so. That is really good advice i used to think of the videotape as being something I might use in case there was a lawsuit. And I we used to do it, but I’ve been out there several times recently and I have not been videotaping but it makes a lot of sense because, you know, when you’re dealing with someone who consistently lies, there’s no reason to, you know, to expect anything more when you’re fighting against. Yeah, the group that consistently puts up false beliefs every pro abortion statement essentially is built on a false belief like there i don’t think there’s an exception to that rule.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
It is that’s right. That’s exactly right. And the other thing, too, to keep in mind is don’t be intimidated by, first of all, don’t be intimidated by them videotaping you. Sometimes they think that intimidates us or they. I see them taping i wave to the camera hey, folks hey, how you doing god bless, you know. And secondly, you know, they might invoke privacy oh, you’re violating the person’s privacy. No, you’re not. There’s no expectation of privacy out on a public sidewalk. You know, when people are walking out in public, you got to, you got part of the price of walking out in public is that anybody can videotape you at any time and they can do what they want with that video. So there’s no expectation of privacy you’re not violating someone’s privacy simply because you got the video camera going. Nor are we saying that, you know, we’re going to take this video and post it on YouTube, you know, in the next hour we’re not going to do that either. We’re just videotaping for our own protection if somebody should do something or accuse us of something later.
Jacob Barr :
On that is excellent, excellent advice and yeah, and cell phones make it so easy there’s no, yeah, no nothing, nothing. You know, beyond what people already have it works with what you already have and so that makes a lot of sense. So the election is coming up. What might you say to people who are listening? You know, when it comes to the election and when it comes to local politics, when it comes to all politics, what might you say, Father Frank?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
Well, you know, Jacob, especially in this election now, most people believe that America is going in the wrong direction. Most people think the country is a little bit dysfunctional right now, whether it’s on these moral issues like abortion or whether it’s that we don’t have safety you know, crimes are on the rise, historically on the rise, obviously the economy, the inflation, gasoline, groceries, the prices are out of control problems on the with the border, we basically have no southern border, international problems america is not enjoying the kind of esteem that we have traditionally enjoyed it’s a lot of things that people are looking at and they’re saying, no, I don’t like this and it’s not that it’s a political thing or partisan thing. It’s just that people want a country that works, that works for them, for their families, for their children, for their churches. We want religious freedom, and we see that we see the censorship, we see discrimination, we see all kinds of stuff that I think the first thing to keep in mind as we approach these elections now is that by our vote, everybody has an opportunity right now to change things, to put our country in a new direction. We have that opportunity and again, I believe it transcends how a person identifies as Republican, Democrat, independent, because Republicans, Democrats and independents all can see that in so many ways the country’s not working. So maybe we got to try something different maybe we need some new leadership and maybe we need some divided government because we know that the, you know, the policies coming out of the White House and coming out of the House of Representatives and coming out of the Senate are essentially all leading in the same direction and if that direction’s not working, one of the safety valves that our founding fathers put into our system of self governance is that we could have a House of Representatives of a different party than the Senate or the House and the Senate of a different party than the White House. And the result of that is that there are nobody has absolute power and then that’s a good thing in American politics and government, the system is set up in a way that nobody has absolute power there’s checks and balances there’s divided government and elections give us a chance to introduce some measure of change. Voting is not just a right, it’s a duty. And let’s look at it spiritually for a moment we were talking earlier about early in the program about, you know, love of God, love of neighbor. And we were saying that this is what, you know, ultimately is the motivating factor for, you know, getting involved in something like pro-life Well, it’s the motivating factor for voting and people might not think of it in those terms as what was voting have to do with love of neighbor. Well, let’s think of it this way we vote. We put people, we give people significant power when we vote. Power to write our laws, to enforce our laws, to make court decisions. And all those decisions and all those laws have impact on us and on our neighbor. They have impact across the country. So part of loving our neighbor is to say, let me do what I can to make sure my neighbor has the best kind of leaders they can have the best kind of lawmakers, the best kind of judges. I’ll have them too. But it actually is an act of love of neighbor to try to vote in a way that advances what the church calls the common good. What’s the best thing for the for the people and for their rights. So look at voting as an exercise of love of neighbor and also love of God, because God gave us our system of governance you know, there’s all different types of government, but God is the one ultimately who establishes human authority and it’s an act of love of God jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s Be a good citizen of God’s Kingdom, Be a good citizen of the kingdom’s here on earth, our nations here on earth. It’s a spiritual responsibility. And let’s carry it out in an informed way we have to do our homework. And not just you don’t want to vote like you’re, you know, shooting at a dartboard in the in the dark, you know, oh, eeny meeny, eeny MO i mean, I don’t know who this person is, but I’ll give them my vote. Yeah, we should know ahead of time who these people are on the ballot. And we can look up our ballot online. There’s a great voter guide there’s an electronic voter guide called I Voter guide ivoter guide.com You can look up the races in your particular state you’ll find a lot of them. Not both federal, state and local races. And Ballotpedia is another one ballotpedia.com You know, just like also with ivoter Guide, you can find your ballot. The first time you look at your ballot should not be when you’re filling it out to vote. It should be well in advance. Let’s do our homework. And let’s take part in this process, because it’s a way of showing God gratitude for the fact that we are able to elect our leaders, We’re able to hire them, we’re able to fire them if they need to be fired. And we do that with gratitude to the God who gave us freedom.
Jacob Barr :
Yeah, and this will be the first. Well, we’re in a new era in the in the Dobbs era where the power, the political power over pro-life laws or you know, abortion restrictions is now within the state governments. And so every Paul, every, I think every race from, you know, the local, the local Senate all the way down to the local school board have immense influence on our local communities and when it comes to making healthy decisions for our communities and so I think, I mean it’s always, you know, they’ve always had power for influencing our communities but I think that the life, you know, the power to make laws or, you know, decisions that involve abortion has now been renewed in that space based on Roe being overturned.
Fr. Frank Pavone :
And that’s an important point you know, for I’m sure many of our audience shares the conviction that I do, that there is no issue more important than the protection of life itself, because all our other rights, goods and freedoms depend on being alive you got to protect, if you take away someone’s life, you’ve taken away their education, their housing, their health care, their right to vote, their right to work, their right to security, their right to travel i mean, everything falls when you deprive a personal life, especially right there at the beginning, while they’re still in the womb. So now that the Dobbs case said, so abortion policy is going to be set by the people and their elected representatives. So the election now means even more than it did before when it comes to abortion policy. Because before Dobbs, yeah, a lot of pro-life laws were passed, but then they were struck down by the courts because of the courts were saying, well, Roe V Wade, it allows abortion. We strike down this law that prevents it. But now the court said, no, we’re not going to stand in your way anymore. That’s essentially what the Dobbs case was. We are not going to stand in your way, people and your elected representatives. You take abortion policy the where the way you see is best. Well, which way is that going to be exactly depends on whom we elect to make our laws. And also a lot of elections of judges. Judges are very important we elect them to make sure they got the right judicial philosophy, that they’re not supposed to be the lawmakers. They’re supposed to be impartial, just judges based on the Constitution and on the laws that are written.
Jacob Barr :
Already awesome. Well, I’ve got one final question for your father, Frank. And so I was talking with Andrea Truden with Heartbeat International before this podcast. And so I asked this, if there was one question that you could ask Father Frank Pavone, what would it be and she said that I would, It would be really interesting to hear how much fun you enjoy being on a roller coaster it’s, I’ve heard that she mentioned that roller coasters are one of your favorite activities are riding on a roller coaster. So could you take a moment and just describe how you enjoy roller coasters?
Fr. Frank Pavone :
She obviously knows me well and i always speak at the Heartbeat International Conference and I enjoy seeing her there and at other at other times too. I love roller coasters in fact, I grew up near an amusement park where I play land in New York many may know about it and I just this is the first hill, right going down the first hill now i like being in the back of the roller coaster. If you’re in the last seat, going down the hill is faster than if you’re in the first seat a lot of people run to the first seat yeah, that’s exciting, you know, you see everything but going to the Lassie and it’s fast as going i love, even though the metal ones that go, you know, all the way upside down. I’ve always enjoyed it to this day i enjoyed it this. I was re visiting with my parents up in New York this just this summer. And I went to that old amusement park where I grew up and I went on the roller coaster. It’s a it’s something that is just some people have said to me, you know, Father Frank, you know, the reason you like it so much is that your life is a roller coaster, you know, engaging in the front lines of the pro-life movement and what the things you do and maybe that’s maybe, you know, maybe you enjoy the things that reflect the way you live i don’t know. But roller coasters to this very day are really just great fun for me oh.
Jacob Barr :
That’s good. That’s good.